Voyager made the Borg wusses

[MacLeod]

Well the Borg appear to learn by adapting/assimilating knowledge. So you have the UFP which has shown an ability to come with new tech to defeat you on several occasions. It could be argued from a long term view that sending a cube once every few years to try and assimilate is a good idea. At worst you'll learn about a new tech and best you will be succesful.

As for the question at hand did VOY weaken the Borg, The more a villian is used the less threatening they becomes. Where VOY I think runs into problems is that the Borg are considered to be more advanced that the Federation. And in the major borg encounters from TNG how they where handled varied

"Q Who?" Q snapped his fingers and saved the Enterprise.

"Best of Both Worlds", The crew managed to access in essence the Borg and order the ship to regenerate. After the Borg had blown had destroyed 39 out of 40 ships at Wolf 359

ST:FC, The Borg ship has taken a fair amount of damage and destroyed numerous ships, but thanks to a residual link Picard is able to determine a weak spot

As for "I, Borg" and "Descent" they didn't deal with the collective.

So simply put VOY over used the Borg, in another Sci-Fi franchise DW the same argument is sometimes used in regards to the Daleks, there is however one slight difference the Daleks are at best equal in terms of tech level to the Timelords. So when the Doctor defeats them he is from a race that is more advanced than the Daleks at best and at worst equal.

 

[Deks]

While I will agree that there are some obvious 'gaps' in Borg behavior in say 'Dark Frontier', overall, I don't think Voyager made them into 'wusses'.
TNG did that nicely with 'I, Borg' and introduction of the Queen.

Voyager barely managed to get out of every Borg encounter by the skin of their teeth (an excellent example of how this was 'realistically' portrayed was in that episode with Icheb when the crew beamed a photon torpedo onto the Brunali transport ship which detonated inside the Sphere and crippled it).

Unimatrix Zero was actually done ok in my viewing - even the initial battle with the Tactical Cube (you can always use the presence of 7, and enhancements the ship got before that episode to justify why Voyager was able to keep its Warp drive operational and prevented the drones from beaming in).

Endgame is a special scenario due to highly advanced techs.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

During the time of TNG, the Borg did not see the Federation as a significant threat and that's the most likely reason behind sending only one or two vessels.

Then we see the Borg invasion in the Destiny trilogy, which is supposed to be a Borg act of 'vengeance' after the events of 'Endgame' because the Federation was a significant threat to the Collective after those events. But I think it was more a product of securing their own position as a major power in the galaxy; they can't do that if the Federation pose such a threat to them.

But even if the main catalyst for that invasion was Endgame, the fault of that does not rest on the shoulders of Captain Janeway. She destroyed the Borg Hub in an effort to protect the Federation, and Admiral Janeway went to obliterate the Borg Unicomplex for the same reason. How could either of them have known that a Borg invasion would be the fallout?

If you think about it that way, Voyager did make the Borg more powerful and more aggressive.

 

[MacLeod]

Well if you go around altering the timeline to suit your own selfish ends, then don't be suprised when unexpected things occur.

Besides the Borg transwarp hub made no sense what so ever in the larger view. As it come out what within a light year or so of Earth why not simply use that to send a cube to assimlate Earth. If used in BOBW or FC, by going the long route, it allowed Federation sensors to detect the approaching vessel and mobilse a fleet to intercept.

 

[Anwar]

Assuming that Transwarp gateway to Earth wasn't some new portal they'd recently created for that specific purpose...

 

[MacLeod]

From memory the information about the Transwarp hub comes from Seven of Nine.

So the rough timeline is

2373 the events of First Contact take place
2374 Seven of Nine is liberated from the collective.

It can therfore be inferred that the hub existed at the time of FC.

 

[Anwar]

I thought it was Admiral Janeway who told them about it.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

Voyager discovers the transwarp hub during the second part of Endgame when they fly into the nebula for the second time and Seven recognizes it.

SEVEN: It's more than that. It's a transwarp hub.
JANEWAY: You once told me there were only six of them in the galaxy.
SEVEN: That's correct.

Admiral Janeway didn't tell them about the transwarp hub because she knew that Captain Janeway would object or try and find a way to destroy it... which they do anyways.

It's true that the Borg transwarp hubs do not make much sense in accordance with the Borg's previous tactical strategies, because if they have conduits that basically lead to Earth then why don't they use them?

On another note: when the heck did Seven tell Janeway about them?!

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Then we see the Borg invasion in the Destiny trilogy, which is supposed to be a Borg act of 'vengeance' after the events of 'Endgame' because the Federation was a significant threat to the Collective after those events. But I think it was more a product of securing their own position as a major power in the galaxy; they can't do that if the Federation pose such a threat to them.

But even if the main catalyst for that invasion was Endgame, the fault of that does not rest on the shoulders of Captain Janeway. She destroyed the Borg Hub in an effort to protect the Federation, and Admiral Janeway went to obliterate the Borg Unicomplex for the same reason. How could either of them have known that a Borg invasion would be the fallout?

If you stir up a hornet's nest, it's a near certainty you'll get stung.

Janeway actually hurt the borg and she expected the borg NOT to retaliate?
Despite the fact that crushing the federation like a bug was easily within the collective's capabilities (a fact Janeway knew)? That the borg had slipstream and other beyond warp transportation is common in the trekverse (as Janeway knew)?
Really?

Janeway acted as a 5 year old, not able to think beyond 5 minutes into the future, beyond getting the ship back to Earth and hurting the borg.

Janeway - and the crew - were either criminally negligent or criminally stupid or both.
They most definitely did NOT act to protect the federation.
And 64 BILLION payed with their blood for Janeway's egoism. A VERY HIGH price to pay for Janeway's wish fulfillment.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Then we see the Borg invasion in the Destiny trilogy, which is supposed to be a Borg act of 'vengeance' after the events of 'Endgame' because the Federation was a significant threat to the Collective after those events. But I think it was more a product of securing their own position as a major power in the galaxy; they can't do that if the Federation pose such a threat to them.

But even if the main catalyst for that invasion was Endgame, the fault of that does not rest on the shoulders of Captain Janeway. She destroyed the Borg Hub in an effort to protect the Federation, and Admiral Janeway went to obliterate the Borg Unicomplex for the same reason. How could either of them have known that a Borg invasion would be the fallout?

If you stir up a hornet's nest, it's a near certainty you'll get stung.

Janeway actually hurt the borg and she expected the borg NOT to retaliate?
Despite the fact that crushing the federation like a bug was easily within the collective's capabilities (a fact Janeway knew)? That the borg had slipstream and other beyond warp transportation is common in the trekverse (as Janeway knew)?
Really?

Janeway acted as a 5 year old, not able to think beyond 5 minutes into the future, beyond getting the ship back to Earth and hurting the borg.

Janeway - and the crew - were either criminally negligent or criminally stupid or both.
They most definitely did NOT act to protect the federation.
And 64 BILLION payed with their blood for Janeway's egoism. A VERY HIGH price to pay for Janeway's wish fulfillment.

If you'd read "Watching the Clock" was well as "Destiny", you'd know what the alternative would have been much, much worse.

Spoiler: Watching the Clock

Had Janeway not provoked the Borg into all-our war with the Federation, the Borg would have assimilated the galaxy within a few hundred years.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Then we see the Borg invasion in the Destiny trilogy, which is supposed to be a Borg act of 'vengeance' after the events of 'Endgame' because the Federation was a significant threat to the Collective after those events. But I think it was more a product of securing their own position as a major power in the galaxy; they can't do that if the Federation pose such a threat to them.

But even if the main catalyst for that invasion was Endgame, the fault of that does not rest on the shoulders of Captain Janeway. She destroyed the Borg Hub in an effort to protect the Federation, and Admiral Janeway went to obliterate the Borg Unicomplex for the same reason. How could either of them have known that a Borg invasion would be the fallout?

If you stir up a hornet's nest, it's a near certainty you'll get stung.

Janeway actually hurt the borg and she expected the borg NOT to retaliate?
Despite the fact that crushing the federation like a bug was easily within the collective's capabilities (a fact Janeway knew)? That the borg had slipstream and other beyond warp transportation is common in the trekverse (as Janeway knew)?
Really?

Janeway acted as a 5 year old, not able to think beyond 5 minutes into the future, beyond getting the ship back to Earth and hurting the borg.

Janeway - and the crew - were either criminally negligent or criminally stupid or both.
They most definitely did NOT act to protect the federation.
And 64 BILLION payed with their blood for Janeway's egoism. A VERY HIGH price to pay for Janeway's wish fulfillment.

If you'd read "Watching the Clock" was well as "Destiny", you'd know what the alternative would have been much, much worse.

Spoiler: Watching the Clock

Had Janeway not provoked the Borg into all-our war with the Federation, the Borg would have assimilated the galaxy within a few hundred years.

"Watching the Clock" is merely post facto window dressing, meant to make Janeway look less criminally incompetent.


And not fully successful at this, too:
Janeway had no way of knowing that the caeliar existed, that destroying the transwarp hub will lead to the caeliar intervening, etc; that's so improbable as to be utterly unpredictable.
What was fully predictable was that destroying the transwarp hub will lead to the borg attacking and destroying the federation in the near future (when starfleet was not even close to ready for it), as opposed to starfleet having a few decades to prepare and be in a better position to confront the borg (as admiral Janeway proves).

Janeway proved incapable to envisage even the medium term consequences of her actions - or she just didn't care.

 

[F. King Daniel]

You can't pick and choose. Either you take the whole expanded universe into account - where the galaxy is assimilated if Janeway hadn't provoked the Borg leading to the massacre in 2381, or you take none of it, in which case Janeway got Voyager home early in "Endgame", blew up a transwarp hub and the story ends with no repurcussions beyond the obvious rewriting of her crew's subsequent history.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

KingDaniel, do read my previous post - I DID take the whole universe into account.

The mitigating circumstance 'Watching the clock' tried to introduce fails because it was utterly unpredictable by 'Endgame'.
It's just like saying that killing someone is OK because, despite the fact that you had no idea about it when you killed him in order to steal 100$, he would have become the next Stalin. And you know this because a prophet told you this, post facto.

When Janeway made her decision, it was NOT on the basis of such predictions - AKA in the situation established in 'Endgame', her decision remains criminally stupid or criminally reckless or both.

 

[Anwar]

It's no different from Captain Kirk's actions in TSFS. That whole thing with the Klingons could've led to war between them and the Feds, but thanks to the Alien Whale Probe thing and Kirk and co saving everyone from it the whole situation ended up defused.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Not even close.

Kirk only broke starfleet quarantine. Hardly doomsday.
As for the klingons - they were the ones trespassing on federation territory, destroying federation starships; Kirk did nothing to provoke them - it was the other way around.

Janeway all but condemned to death the entire federation just so that she can get to Earth.

 

[MacLeod]

Lets examine the Klingon actions in TSFS

Violated Neutral Zone
Destroyed a Federation Ship
Murdered Federation Citizens

The first two could be considered acts of war.

All Kirk did was travel into a restricted zone onboard a stolen ship.

But back to Endgame as the novels are non-canon non of that happened (not saying it's not interesting to speculate), so as far as we know their was no lasting repercussions from the events of Endgame" except maybe the Borg threat had gone done. As well as opening yet another whole can of worms with the transwarp hub exiting so close to Earth, yet the Borg forgotting they had it when they launched at least once attack on Earth in FC. It might not have been around at the time of BOBW.

 

[Alocin]

I believe that the problem is not so much that Voyager chose to use the Borg or even the number of episodes that the Borg appeared at all. I believe that the problem is because the writing team did not have have a plan, a season or even multi-season arc to structure and develop a logical, thought out Borg presence on the show.

They treated the Borg in two distinct ways, as alien beings who were humanised aboard the ship, particularly Seven but also the children. Or as main villains. In essence they didn't seem to realise they were pursuing their version TNG and later DS9 exploration Klingon culture and identity.

Yes, the Borg did weaken, but that was inevitable if Voyager gained substantial intel and technology in the course of contact with primarily Seven, but also other characters and species exposed to the Borg such as the Brunali. The lack of an overall plan meant that the ship drifted from one incident to another without necessarily stepping forward and putting pieces together. Consequently, they didn't bother thinking about what the results of 'Endgame' in-particular might be. Ironically, the Borg could be assumed to have a plan of sorts from what we see, if Seven's discoveries about herself and her potential future in 'Dark Frontier'.

The Borg adapt and they might spend a period which was much weaker, but eventually they would find something which might even up the score. Janeway on the other-hand, can never be said to think ahead much. Let's assume that the Collective is a different, societal super-structure from the Borg as a species. Destroying the Collective without leaving a viable alternative for the Borg species is the height of irresponsibility and shows the lack of thought on the part of the senior production team. For my money, leaving Seven to turn Moses leading the Borg Children of Israel to the Promised Land would have been much more logical ending than what we got.

They just left too many holes for the Borg material to be satisfying, actually like the whole of the series....

 

[BruntFCA]

Off topic but how do you pronounce caeliar?

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

Then we see the Borg invasion in the Destiny trilogy, which is supposed to be a Borg act of 'vengeance' after the events of 'Endgame' because the Federation was a significant threat to the Collective after those events. But I think it was more a product of securing their own position as a major power in the galaxy; they can't do that if the Federation pose such a threat to them.

But even if the main catalyst for that invasion was Endgame, the fault of that does not rest on the shoulders of Captain Janeway. She destroyed the Borg Hub in an effort to protect the Federation, and Admiral Janeway went to obliterate the Borg Unicomplex for the same reason. How could either of them have known that a Borg invasion would be the fallout?

If you stir up a hornet's nest, it's a near certainty you'll get stung.

Janeway actually hurt the borg and she expected the borg NOT to retaliate?
Despite the fact that crushing the federation like a bug was easily within the collective's capabilities (a fact Janeway knew)? That the borg had slipstream and other beyond warp transportation is common in the trekverse (as Janeway knew)?
Really?

Janeway acted as a 5 year old, not able to think beyond 5 minutes into the future, beyond getting the ship back to Earth and hurting the borg.

Janeway - and the crew - were either criminally negligent or criminally stupid or both.
They most definitely did NOT act to protect the federation.
And 64 BILLION payed with their blood for Janeway's egoism. A VERY HIGH price to pay for Janeway's wish fulfillment.

The very same thing can be said for the Borg in terms of their interactions with Species 8472, but they did so under the premise of assimilation, nothing more. If Janeway hadn't done something the Borg would have tried to assimilate the Federation anyways because that is their directive. The Borg are going to assimilate cultures no matter what; there is no stopping that.

In Endgame we are given the impression that the Borg are nearly crippled, which would seem to imply that they are not capable of retaliating for a long time (if at all). But of course, in the novels they bring back the Borg.

But Janeway acting as an egotistical five year-old? Really? And then placing all the blame for the deaths of sixty-four billion people on her shoulders? That's low.

 

[Anwar]

I mean heck, there were potentially interesting ways to deal with the Borg in VOY:

1) The Borg-8472 War would be the main plot for every Borg appearance, with VOY finding some random alien tech that allows them to create weapons that can hurt the 8472. VOY tries to work on developing this weapon while the Borg might start hunting them for it while other aliens who want the Borg dead are willing to protect VOY, and in the end they unleash the weapon after the 8472 have killed most of the Borg which leaves the 8472 so devastated they retreat back to Fluidic space and seal the gateway from their side so we can't hunt them down. The remnants of the Collective are so weakened that the aliens preyed upon by the Borg can easily overpower and destroy them/quarantine them forever if they want.

2) Hugh and his group show up in the Delta Quadrant, having found ways of liberating Borg drones (Unimatrix Zero) and have their own armada of powerful Borg ships at their disposal. They get VOY to help them in further liberating the Drones and Hugh's group become stronger and stronger with every appearance. In "Endgame" it's them who get VOY to the Transwarp Hub and use it to send them back to Earth with the implication being that Hugh will destroy the Collective.

But would anyone have liked these stories? No.

All they wanted were Borg Cubes that can't be damaged destroying everything because Borg that can't be stopped are the only true Borg.