Voyager Hate

[Tosk]

The premise was that they'd have no support. That means they can't build up a new power base or make allies or get involved in local affairs.

It means nothing of the sort. "The Void" is a good example of how they could have approached writing the show earlier.

Lost far from home, totally alone, and never getting any support from anyone.

No, not getting support from the Federation. Big difference.

The Maquis and the Feds weren't really different enough for the conflict to last very long, nor were they really enemies either.

If the writers were up to the challenge, the Fed/Maquis split would have been a terrific ongoing arc. Starting at the pilot, spend two seasons dealing on and off with that internal conflict as a backdrop to the main stories you want to tell, gradually getting the characters to a place where they may not agree but see both sides a lot clearer. We got tiny little slices of that approach, just not enough. We here at the TrekBBS have argued longer over lesser differences of opinion than the Feds and Maquis had.

They hate it the most, and it's unreasonable. It got really bad about 10 years ago though.

Why is it unreasonable? Maybe the fault is with the show and not the viewers?

Considering how you were the one who said VOY was hated from before it started, you've been complaining about it a whole lot. So which is it? VOY is unfairly hated, or VOY is crap?

 

[fireproof78]

The premise had the potential, and is not as constrained as it is being painted. I mean, this isn't BSG where humanity is on the edge of extinction. YOu have the idealized humanity of the Federation, here to champion ideals in the face of adversity.

What the audience was expecting was for them to quickly renounce these ideals and become space pirates.

Um, based upon what? Because, unless you have some sort of fan correspondence that I am unaware of, I don't think anyone expected a Starfleet vessel to become Firefly. That seems a bit unreasonable.

You have the Maquis, who are freedom fighters, and are used to fighting alone, with no support system. So you use them to innovate ideas that Starfleet officers would not necessarily think of, because they are use to to relying on starbase facilities.

They shot that down with the "No Support" part of the premise.

Why does "No support" mean no one is going to help them? If they are surrounded by enemies, sure. But then there are a couple of episodes where they are visiting friendly aliens. So, they don't have no support in the sense of no allies. They just don't have the Federation.

They were never going to stay in any area of the DQ long enough to flesh it out. Staying in any area longer than one episode or so was another thing the show got complaints over.

Again, do you have records of these complaints? Because Voyager stuck around in Borg space, or near it, for a while.

Gilligan Syndrome. The show had a plot that couldn't be solved until the last episode or the show would be over. Not having a plot beyond that was another conceptual problem.

But, they did nothing to overcome that problem. It might be a problem, inherent to the type of plot, but that doesn't make it an insurmountable obstacle.

But, unlike BSG, Voyager has an organization looking for them and trying to reach them. Shows like "Message in a Bottle" illustrate the idea of having Starfleet being making limited contact and giving them a sense of purpose and direction.

And when they re-established contact, they got complaints over THAT too.

I have the feeling that they would get complaints regardless. Maybe we should not use that as a standard to evaluate the quality of a show. Because Voyager has enough problems without it.

So, I don't feel it is very fair to say that Trek fans wanted to hate Voyager. I really don't think anyone starts out wanting to hate something or hoping that it sucks and then celebrating when they are right. But, I could be wrong.

Clearly, the audience had no real positivity for the show when it started. Maybe not hatred, but nothing good.

Yeah, I'm going to ask, based upon what? First of all, Caretaker was not impressive by any stretch but neither was Encounter at Farpoint.

The problem with Voyager is not the fan complaints, because EVERY show gets those. It is how they executed it and in my opinion, it was not executed well.

 

[Anwar]

It means nothing of the sort. "The Void" is a good example of how they could have approached writing the show earlier.

And The Void got complaints for violating the "No Support" part of the premise. Nevermind it was a good story, the audience didn't care.

It's just like how the only reaction "Living Witness" got was how they violated the whole "The EMH can't be backed up!" thing. Nothing else mattered, not Picardo's acting, not the story, not the points it was trying to make. The audience saw NONE of that, all they cared about was a petty meaningless plot point and they let it ruin everything for them.

No, not getting support from the Federation. Big difference.

It's "Support" in general, so that includes everyone.

If the writers were up to the challenge, the Fed/Maquis split would have been a terrific ongoing arc.

It's only good enough for 1 season or so. After that, they'd have to get along or they'd come off as a bunch of mentally unbalanced morons.

We here at the TrekBBS have argued longer over lesser differences of opinion than the Feds and Maquis had.

Do we have to live together in a life-or-death struggle every day? Because in that environment, you either get with it very fast get dead really fast.

Why is it unreasonable?

Unrealistic expectations.

Considering how you were the one who said VOY was hated from before it started, you've been complaining about it a whole lot. So which is it? VOY is unfairly hated, or VOY is crap?

I enjoy it, even though I know there were conceptual problems with the show.

Um, based upon what? Because, unless you have some sort of fan correspondence that I am unaware of, I don't think anyone expected a Starfleet vessel to become Firefly. That seems a bit unreasonable.

Nevertheless, it's what VOY haters wanted.

So, they don't have no support in the sense of no allies. They just don't have the Federation.

Covered this.

Because Voyager stuck around in Borg space, or near it, for a while.

And the audience hated THAT too.

It might be a problem, inherent to the type of plot, but that doesn't make it an insurmountable obstacle.

They had a good series plot (the 8472 invasion) but the audience hating the idea of there being a Species that could fight off the Borg put the kibosh on that.

Yeah, I'm going to ask, based upon what

Based on the reactions I saw it getting from the guys I watched it with, and then the overall negative reaction I saw it getting once I came here which just backed up the views of the guys I watched it with. It lessened a bit once NuBSG crashed and burned but its' still there.

 

[Tosk]

And The Void got complaints for violating the "No Support" part of the premise.

Your friends again? I'll need a bigger sample audience than "the guys you watched it with", thanks.

No, not getting support from the Federation. Big difference.

It's "Support" in general, so that includes everyone.[/quote]Says who? The concept only dictates that the Federation is too far away to help. Beyond that, the writers could have done whatever they wanted.

It's only good enough for 1 season or so. After that, they'd have to get along or they'd come off as a bunch of mentally unbalanced morons.

People have to get along after a certain amount of time? Could it be one season and two episodes, or is that too much? Where exactly is the arbitrary line?

Unrealistic expectations.

Why do Niners have unrealistic expectations? Do TNG fans who dislike VOY have unrealistic expectations, or are their opinions justified?

Nevertheless, it's what VOY haters wanted.

Who are VOY haters? Using that term doesn't automatically make someone who disliked VOY to be "wrong" somehow. Many people have legitimate reasons for disliking it. And they aren't wrong. Just as you are not wrong for enjoying it. Plus, I've never once heard someone say, "Man, Voyager sucked because they didn't abandon all their principles." But if someone somewhere said that, I'll stand corrected.

Just saying "the audience hated that" doesn't really mean anything, by the way. "The audience" isn't the same people every time. Some of them hated this, some of them hated that, some of them fell asleep...

 

[Anwar]

Says who? The concept only dictates that the Federation is too far away to help. Beyond that, the writers could have done whatever they wanted.

And whenever they DID try to have them make friends or alliances or whatever, all they got was panning. "One strike you're out", basically.

Your friends again? I'll need a bigger sample audience than "the guys you watched it with", thanks.

Like I said, even Living Witness only gets seen for its miniscule flaws. The Void similarly gets panned for the idea of there being some barren area of space and how Voyager was too important in being the first ship to try and get everyone to work together.

]People have to get along after a certain amount of time? Could it be one season and two episodes, or is that too much? Where exactly is the arbitrary line?

Do you know why "Lost in Space" made Dr Smith a bumbling idiot when he started off as a cold calculating murderous rogue? It's because the writers and the ACTOR HIMSELF all realized they couldn't justify keeping him around and the rest of the cast not getting rid of him otherwise.

Similarly, if the Maquis and Feds couldn't get their act together and realize they have to be adults and not petty little babies you'd have to wonder why the Fleeters (who outnumbered and outgunned the Maquis and didn't really need them after a while) wouldn't just get rid of them after awhile.

Why do Niners have unrealistic expectations? Do TNG fans who dislike VOY have unrealistic expectations, or are their opinions justified?

If it's the same old "The ship should've been more trashed" or "The crews should've been against one another the entire series" then yes it is unrealistic.

Plus, I've never once heard someone say, "Man, Voyager sucked because they didn't abandon all their principles." But if someone somewhere said that, I'll stand corrected.

I read posts where guys said having Janeway get raped would've been a good plot. I think that says it all.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

That was explained, the ships actually belonged to the race that had conquered and oppressed them until the Kazon revolted, defeated them and stole their ships.

I don't recall that explanation, but it still doesn't make much sense...the Kazon have their ships in the pilot, so they are apparently desperate for water just hours before we see their ships. Was the oppression thing perhaps a later inserted backstory to try and patch that hole a little?

It wasn't a patch-the Kazon were an oppressed people that rose up and overthrew the Trabe, drove the Trabe off of their homeworld, and then took most of their ships, forcing the Trabe to flee in a few hundred(s) of the ships that they had left. The Karon are little more than barbarians, and so they don't know how to maintain most of the Trabe tech, or invent anything like replicators (although I don't know why they have a problem getting water myself, unless they don't know how to mine that either.)

 

[Tosk]

And whenever they DID try to have them make friends or alliances or whatever, all they got was panning. "One strike you're out", basically.

Who panned which episode? Which specific friend or alliance was made in the show and then panned by every viewer? Didn't you already say that the concept didn't allow for them to make friends or alliances? Now you say they did and people hated it. Can't be both.

Similarly, if the Maquis and Feds couldn't get their act together and realize they have to be adults and not petty little babies you'd have to wonder why the Fleeters (who outnumbered and outgunned the Maquis and didn't really need them after a while) wouldn't just get rid of them after awhile.

We're not talking about them being at each others throats all the time, but differences of opinion could have still cropped up on a regular basis.

If it's the same old "The ship should've been more trashed" or "The crews should've been against one another the entire series" then yes it is unrealistic.

Are they the only two complaints that count as unrealistic expectations? Then everything else is valid.

I read posts where guys said having Janeway get raped would've been a good plot. I think that says it all.

Even if that is true, it means nothing. Your argument boils down to, "Anyone who disliked Voyager came in with an agenda to do so." I didn't do that, so you're just wrong. Did some people? Yeah, probably. But so what?

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

OMG! What episode is this?! Please tell me! Too bad it wasn't real. Did he do his own singing?

I came across this little ditty

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Kf3_KJPtM[/yt]http://

Yes, Picardo did all of his own singing. The one I posted is from "Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy" in Season 5.

The one you posted is from my favorite episode of the entire series "Someone to Watch Over Me", also Season 5.

Thanks. Can't wait to watch them

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

[/quote]I read posts where guys said having Janeway get raped would've been a good plot. I think that says it all.[/QUOTE]

That is unbelievably horrible! The thought that there are people out there who would want to see that sickens me.

 

[Anwar]

Didn't you already say that the concept didn't allow for them to make friends or alliances? Now you say they did and people hated it. Can't be both.

I'm saying that they tried to go against their straitjacket premise because the show actually needed that stuff they weren't allowed to use and the audience complained they were violating the premise.

So it's screwed either way.

And the audience complained about attempts like "Alliances" or bringing a Vidiian Doctor onboard like in "Lifesigns" or even bringing Neelix and Kes onboard.

We're not talking about them being at each others throats all the time, but differences of opinion could have still cropped up on a regular basis.

That's the problem, the Feds and Maquis just weren't that different enough to consistently have differing opinions.

If the other crew had been random Delta Quadrant aliens (which also would give them greater ties to the DQ as another bonus) or Romulans (actual enemies) then there'd be more to work with.

Are they the only two complaints that count as unrealistic expectations?

No, just the ones howled about more than others.

Did some people? Yeah, probably. But so what?

No other Trek had that to endure, not even TNG and DS9.

I don't think I ever heard one poster ever say they wanted Kirk, Picard or Sisko to get violated.

 

[Tosk]

I'm saying that they tried to go against their straitjacket premise because the show actually needed that stuff they weren't allowed to use and the audience complained they were violating the premise.

The premise wasn't a straitjacket at all, no matter how many times you claim it to be. What audience complained about them violating the premise in that way? Show me.

That's the problem, the Feds and Maquis just weren't that different enough to consistently have differing opinions.

Sure they are. All they had to do was paint the Starfleeters as people who wouldn't compromise their principles, and the Maquis as people who would. It's not the most unique approach, but it's better than what we got. Learning Curve may not be much of an episode, but at least it dealt with the difficulties of two crews becoming one, which is more than can be said about 99% of the rest of the series.

Are they the only two complaints that count as unrealistic expectations?

No, just the ones howled about more than others.

So which complaints are off-limits? Is there a list of complaints about VOY that someone must avoid rather than be called a hater?

No other Trek had that to endure, not even TNG and DS9.

Had what to endure? Criticism? You must be joking. Even if "some dude" on the internet said something like that to get a reaction, how does than translate into VOY being so unfairly treated by the masses in your mind?

 

[Anwar]

The premise wasn't a straitjacket at all, no matter how many times you claim it to be. What audience complained about them violating the premise in that way? Show me.

They complained they were able to do any repairs at all. Which means they wanted them to NEVER be able to make repairs.

They complained over "Alliances" and "Lifesigns", "Counterpoint", "Scorpion", them getting help in "Year of Hell", "Resolutions", etc.

Sure they are. All they had to do was paint the Starfleeters as people who wouldn't compromise their principles, and the Maquis as people who would. It's not the most unique approach, but it's better than what we got.

That's the problem, because the Maquis weren't portrayed as folks who would compromise easily either.

So which complaints are off-limits? Is there a list of complaints about VOY that someone must avoid rather than be called a hater?

Complaining over them ever being able to do repairs, ever being able to make allies, ever being able to replenish weapons, etc.

Had what to endure?

Wanting to see the lead get raped.

 

[Rudi Brüggemann]

Okay people, I might not be popular with this, but now I challenge those here who don't think Voyager was the best Star Trek series (like myself), to list up at least 5 things that you liked about the series. I start:

- The Doctor (Robert Picardo was brilliant in the role and the character was a really good idea that was presented fairly good)
- Tuvok (it was nice to see a full Vulcan in action who's in control of himself - if there was anything I didn't like about DS9, it was its unfair treatment of the Vulcan species)
- the Intrepid-class (I think it looks pretty nice, we had the frying-pan look with the Constitution and Galaxy classes, now we also have a shovel-shaped ship )
- female captain (about time, Star Trek, duh! Though I'm not a Janeway fan, but still, it was nice to have that.)
- Species 8472 (terrific idea, would've loved to see more)
- Seven of Nine (sorry, I can't resist, though I would've preferred a Starfleet uniform)
- Some perfect two-parters (Year of Hell, Equinox, aww!)
- the Prometheus-class (one of my favorite starship designs ever!)

There you go. More than five... I wouldn't make a really good Voyager hater, I guess.

 

[Ithekro]

I don't recall any complaints any time Voyager got help from the locals. That would seem like a logical thing to do for a Starfleet ship, open diplomatic relations with the locals in order to survive the situation, and leave a potental friendly race once the Federation does get out that far.

 

[fireproof78]

I believe there was a post about Spock, though, in chains at least.

I'm not going to do the whole multi-quote response, just because this is more a general response than anything else.

First of all, Enterprise, and Abrams Trek, get a lot of grief, and I do mean a lot. Abrams in particular gets accused of being sexist, racist, bigoted, and idiot, stupid, ignorant and ruining Trek on purpose. No doubt, someone out there would rather he kill himself than make another Trek film-this is the Internet after all.

The problems of Voyager stem from who was running the show and the inflexibility to make good use of what they had. No amount of fan hatred will ruin a show, because the fans are not making the creative decisions. If they were, we would not have Star Trek 09 or Into Darkness.

Regarding the Starfleet/Maquis tension: Berman did not want it in the show because it would be "tiresome."

“We wanted to get the Maquis into Starfleet uniforms, with a captain who had to pull together diverse groups of people into a functioning, solid, effective unit. It would get pretty irritating, and cumbersome, to have the Maquis tension in every episode.”

So, no. The crew is one big happy family no argument or discussion. Sorry, that is a missed opportunity. No, it doesn't have to carry over the entire show, but it can still be a part of it.

The lack of direction for the show is honestly what killed it. Voyager feels meandering and pointless, and again, this points back to the creative staff. If you have a goal, and make steps towards the goal, then you have progression. However, Voyager felt too episodic, like TNG, but without the impetus to get home. No drive, or emotion as to what they might need to get home too.

Even Robert Beltran may have been critical of the direction of the show. Again, this does not come back to the fans. It goes back to the premise and how it was executed.

I mean, if Ron Moore, who ends to go on and create a show with a similar premise to Voyager has to leave Voyager after only three episodes, speaks volumes about the leadership on the show. At least, it does to me.

As for Janeway, I have no issue with her or Kate Mulgrew's performance. My only criticism of Voyager is that it did little to expand upon a premise that could have been both restrictive and provide great freedom. Having conflict among the crew doesn't have to happen in every episode, but it certainly has its place. I mean, Spock and McCoy would banter and disagree back and forth, so why not increase the tension? Then, as circumstances force them to work together, the common ground forms and you create a unified crew. Sure, it's one season, but it's one season of character stuff that makes for interesting stories.

By the way, the idea that somehow Voyager has to put up with all the negative press, is being a bit generous.

ID was voted "worse Trek film" at one point: http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/aug/14/star-trek-into-darkness-voted-worst

Enterprise has been eviscerated for its unexplored premise, as well as rampant stupidity. It has the honor of having "Night in Sickbay" being named worst Trek episode by several sites and fan groups.

I found this article interesting: http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/star-trek-voyager/23099/why-do-star-trek-fans-hate-voyager

 

[Tosk]

So which complaints are off-limits? Is there a list of complaints about VOY that someone must avoid rather than be called a hater?

Complaining over them ever being able to do repairs, ever being able to make allies, ever being able to replenish weapons, etc.

Someone should draw up with a list of things that no one is allowed to praise with being labelled an apologist. It's only fair.

And all this just because of the claim that VOY was hated before it started.

Voyager had just as much of a chance to prove or bury itself as any show. Even if it were true that "people" were hating it before it started, that changes nothing in regards to the quality of the show.

if there was anything I didn't like about DS9, it was its unfair treatment of the Vulcan species)

I agree. DS9 never really got the Vulcans right, either. Most of them felt a little "off" to me.

 

[Anwar]

Regarding the Starfleet/Maquis tension: Berman did not want it in the show because it would be "tiresome."

Mike Piller said it was UPN interference that caused it primarily, Berman's power was nominal at best.

The lack of direction for the show is honestly what killed it. Voyager feels meandering and pointless, and again, this points back to the creative staff.

That's what happens when you don't have a real plot.

Even Robert Beltran may have been critical of the direction of the show.

Beltran was giving a crap performance from Day One, which is partially why Chakotay got sidelined (because he was just terrible!). He has no right to complain.

I mean, if Ron Moore, who ends to go on and create a show with a similar premise to Voyager has to leave Voyager after only three episodes, speaks volumes about the leadership on the show. At least, it does to me.

Moore is a whiny bitch who has always run away with his tail tucked between his legs whenever he has to deal with outside interference. His own attempt at a Voyager-like show fell apart after only 2 seasons.

Having conflict among the crew doesn't have to happen in every episode, but it certainly has its place.

Then the audience shouldn't have complained over the tensions not constantly being present.

I mean, Spock and McCoy would banter and disagree back and forth, so why not increase the tension?

Spock and McCoy's banter consisted primarily of taking racist swipes at one another while Kirk hypocritically let them keep it up while getting mad whenever anyone else tried to get in on the Racist Train (like Stiles).

And they had something similar going on with Janeway/Seven later on anyways.

 

[Tosk]

Having conflict among the crew doesn't have to happen in every episode, but it certainly has its place.

Then the audience shouldn't have complained over the tensions not constantly being present.

The show didn't have any tension amongst the crew because the audience complained about the tensions not being constantly present?

Huh?

 

[Anwar]

Having conflict among the crew doesn't have to happen in every episode, but it certainly has its place.

Then the audience shouldn't have complained over the tensions not constantly being present.

The show didn't have any tension amongst the crew because the audience complained about the tensions not being constantly present?

Huh?

It's easier to say that the audience complained that the crew tensions they wanted didn't last the entire 7 seasons and got resolved early on.

 

[Tosk]

Then the audience shouldn't have complained over the tensions not constantly being present.

The show didn't have any tension amongst the crew because the audience complained about the tensions not being constantly present?

Huh?

It's easier to say that the audience complained that the crew tensions they wanted didn't last the entire 7 seasons and got resolved early on.

I...what?