Voyager Hate

[Anwar]

A whole quadrant of stories, nothing but potential for newness as far as the eye could see...I feel bad for the writers.

They're in a pathetic scout ship a kick in the shins would blow up, they're slower and weaker than everyone else. They can't make allies or build up a power base, they can't have recurring external aliens or stay in one place for more than one episode, and everyone wants to kill them.

They can't do any exploration missions, they can't get involved in any epic space adventures, they can't have external plotlines with new aliens, they can't introduce any recurring external characters, the internal conflict wasn't interesting enough to last more than one season, they can't get their hands on alien technology that can generate new plots...

Basically, given their premise, all they could do is just boring crap about fixing the hull, mining asteroids, growing food and running away from absolutely everything without even trying to fight back.

You'll have to be more specific.

Temis, Gotham Central and Navaros are your best bet.

 

[Tosk]

They can't make allies or build up a power base, they can't have recurring external aliens or stay in one place for more than one episode, [...] They can't do any exploration missions, they can't get involved in any epic space adventures, they can't have external plotlines with new aliens, they can't introduce any recurring external characters [...] they can't get their hands on alien technology that can generate new plots

Why not? There is nothing about the premise that prevents any/all of that.

the internal conflict wasn't interesting enough to last more than one season

Take it up with the writers.

Basically, given their premise, all they could do is just boring crap about fixing the hull, mining asteroids, growing food and running away from absolutely everything without even trying to fight back.

Baloney. The premise was "Federation starship lost far from home." The writers chose to use it that way, they weren't forced to.

You'll have to be more specific.

Temis, Gotham Central and Navaros are your best bet.

Still need to be more specific. Are you saying that Niners hate VOY unreasonably, or are you saying that they are uniquely qualified to point out valid reasons that VOY was a disappointment.

 

[Gov Kodos]

A whole quadrant of stories, nothing but potential for newness as far as the eye could see...I feel bad for the writers.

They're in a pathetic scout ship a kick in the shins would blow up, they're slower and weaker than everyone else. They can't make allies or build up a power base, they can't have recurring external aliens or stay in one place for more than one episode, and everyone wants to kill them.

They can't do any exploration missions, they can't get involved in any epic space adventures, they can't have external plotlines with new aliens, they can't introduce any recurring external characters, the internal conflict wasn't interesting enough to last more than one season, they can't get their hands on alien technology that can generate new plots...

Basically, given their premise, all they could do is just boring crap about fixing the hull, mining asteroids, growing food and running away from absolutely everything without even trying to fight back.

You'll have to be more specific.

Temis, Gotham Central and Navaros are your best bet.

Another load of assertions and opinions trying vainly to masquerade as facts.

 

[Amaris]

A whole quadrant of stories, nothing but potential for newness as far as the eye could see...I feel bad for the writers.

They're in a pathetic scout ship a kick in the shins would blow up, they're slower and weaker than everyone else. They can't make allies or build up a power base, they can't have recurring external aliens or stay in one place for more than one episode, and everyone wants to kill them.

They can't do any exploration missions, they can't get involved in any epic space adventures, they can't have external plotlines with new aliens, they can't introduce any recurring external characters, the internal conflict wasn't interesting enough to last more than one season, they can't get their hands on alien technology that can generate new plots...

Basically, given their premise, all they could do is just boring crap about fixing the hull, mining asteroids, growing food and running away from absolutely everything without even trying to fight back.

You'll have to be more specific.

Temis, Gotham Central and Navaros are your best bet.

Why them? Why not Niners like me?

 

[{ Emilia }]

I remember when VOY started as well, and how everyone I watched it with thought it was a silly idea to begin with and just wanted to see how badly it would start off.

I also remember then starting to complain about 3 episodes in how they wanted more stories about the older aliens back in TNG and DS9 and they weren't interested in anything new.

Oh, doh. And here I thought you had more than anecdotal evidence for your claim that "fans were planning to bash VOY from the start". My own anecdotal evidence contradicts yours so the claim is already out the window.
I was excited and actually enjoyed Caretaker back then. As a start to the show it wasn't a bad episode and the show had lots of potential. It's the rest of the 7 season run that sucked donkey balls.

A whole quadrant of stories, nothing but potential for newness as far as the eye could see...I feel bad for the writers.

They're in a pathetic scout ship a kick in the shins would blow up, they're slower and weaker than everyone else. They can't make allies or build up a power base, they can't have recurring external aliens or stay in one place for more than one episode, and everyone wants to kill them.

They can't do any exploration missions, they can't get involved in any epic space adventures, they can't have external plotlines with new aliens, they can't introduce any recurring external characters, the internal conflict wasn't interesting enough to last more than one season, they can't get their hands on alien technology that can generate new plots...

Basically, given their premise, all they could do is just boring crap about fixing the hull, mining asteroids, growing food and running away from absolutely everything without even trying to fight back.

All these same things didn't keep (New-)Battlestar Galactica from being a great series. They didn't do much exploration, they didn't find any allies, they never went to the same place twice.
And that's really what I expected from Voyager back then. Make the show about the characters, make them question whether it makes a lot of sense to keep adhering to Starfleet regulation when they're most likely not getting home anyway, make the conflict between Starfleet personnel and the Maquis way bigger and interesting than it was in the show, make them deal with questions like "Are they willing to betray their ideals to go home?" (Like BSG did when they were wondering if humankind is even worth saving if they betray their ideals), have a mutiny take place, kill a couple of main characters, make them meet strange new creatures instead of reusing the bloody Borg again and again, make the crew VOTE for their captain in a storyline that is about who they think will get VOY home instead of adhering to silly Starfleet regulations... and so on. The potential was there.
What bothered me was that they didn't deliver on any of that and instead just produced "More of the same". Lots of VOY episodes could've just been TNG episodes instead and weren't really related to the show's setting in any meaningful way.

 

[OkLewis]

I didn't mind Voyager, I found it to be an interesting series and I enjoyed the delta quadrant, wish the ending was a bit better though.

 

[CrazyMatt]

Sorry, but for reasons I can't fully explain, I just found Voyager to be... boring. Perhaps it was the characters, none of whom I really felt compelled to watch. They all seemed so milquetoast to me.

If Voyager had been the only Trek on TV for an extended period, perhaps I would have wanted to watch more... but I just found it so lacking in compelling characters and storylines when compared to DS9 (and even TNG).

 

[{ Emilia }]

Sorry, but for reasons I can't fully explain, I just found Voyager to be... boring. Perhaps it was the characters, none of whom I really felt compelled to watch. They all seemed so milquetoast to me.

If Voyager had been the only Trek on TV for an extended period, perhaps I would have wanted to watch more... but I just found it so lacking in compelling characters and storylines when compared to DS9 (and even TNG).

Well, it didn't help that VOY had a bunch of really poor actors.

 

[Alex1939]

The incredibly constrained premise didn't help matters. They didn't have much to work with, especially compared to DS9's freedom.

There was nothing constrained about the premise, it's what they did with it that was the problem.

And geez I mean DS9 was a space station... talk about constricting, but they made it work in believable way (for science fiction) with the wormhole and Defiant.

 

[Commishsleer]

Sorry, but for reasons I can't fully explain, I just found Voyager to be... boring. Perhaps it was the characters, none of whom I really felt compelled to watch. They all seemed so milquetoast to me.

If Voyager had been the only Trek on TV for an extended period, perhaps I would have wanted to watch more... but I just found it so lacking in compelling characters and storylines when compared to DS9 (and even TNG).

Well, it didn't help that VOY had a bunch of really poor actors.

DS9 and TNG had its share of poor actors too.

 

[Anwar]

Why not? There is nothing about the premise that prevents any/all of that.

The premise was that they'd have no support. That means they can't build up a new power base or make allies or get involved in local affairs.

Take it up with the writers.

It's a conceptual flaw. The Maquis and the Feds weren't really different enough for the conflict to last very long, nor were they really enemies either.

Baloney. The premise was "Federation starship lost far from home." The writers chose to use it that way, they weren't forced to.

Lost far from home, totally alone, and never getting any support from anyone.

If that wasn't the premise then the audience wouldn't have gotten upset anytime they managed to make any repairs to the ship at all.

Still need to be more specific. Are you saying that Niners hate VOY unreasonably, or are you saying that they are uniquely qualified to point out valid reasons that VOY was a disappointment.

They hate it the most, and it's unreasonable. It got really bad about 10 years ago though.

All these same things didn't keep (New-)Battlestar Galactica from being a great series. They didn't do much exploration, they didn't find any allies, they never went to the same place twice.

NuBSG fell apart after two seasons, because that's all the "Lost Ship" concept is good for.

They also had plenty of cheats in there that VOY didn't have: They didn't need to explore alien worlds because they had a huge armada with them to explore. The other huge ships they had were their alien worlds. And they DID revisit those ships often.

They DID make allies, the renegade Cylons, because even in a totally empty Universe Moore realized they needed some kind of support system so he had to pull something out of his rear to keep the show going.

And then they needed "God" to end the show because there was no other way to end it.

And that's really what I expected from Voyager back then. Make the show about the characters, make them question whether it makes a lot of sense to keep adhering to Starfleet regulation when they're most likely not getting home anyway

They were just re-doing the same plot TOS and TNG had already done a couple of times.

And geez I mean DS9 was a space station... talk about constricting

DS9 had access to the Gamma Quadrant, the rest of the pre-existing Alpha Quadrant (so they didn't have to make anything new if they didn't want to) and the Defiant meant they could go anywhere in the Alpha Quadrant OR they could stay in the same place and tell stories about recurring characters.

That's far less constrained than VOY's premise.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

OMG! What episode is this?! Please tell me! Too bad it wasn't real. Did he do his own singing?

I came across this little ditty

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Kf3_KJPtM[/yt]http://

Yes, Picardo did all of his own singing. The one I posted is from "Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy" in Season 5.

The one you posted is from my favorite episode of the entire series "Someone to Watch Over Me", also Season 5.

 

[fireproof78]

Why not? There is nothing about the premise that prevents any/all of that.

The premise was that they'd have no support. That means they can't build up a new power base or make allies or get involved in local affairs.

Take it up with the writers.

It's a conceptual flaw. The Maquis and the Feds weren't really different enough for the conflict to last very long, nor were they really enemies either.



Lost far from home, totally alone, and never getting any support from anyone.

If that wasn't the premise then the audience wouldn't have gotten upset anytime they managed to make any repairs to the ship at all.



They hate it the most, and it's unreasonable. It got really bad about 10 years ago though.



NuBSG fell apart after two seasons, because that's all the "Lost Ship" concept is good for.

They also had plenty of cheats in there that VOY didn't have: They didn't need to explore alien worlds because they had a huge armada with them to explore. The other huge ships they had were their alien worlds. And they DID revisit those ships often.

They DID make allies, the renegade Cylons, because even in a totally empty Universe Moore realized they needed some kind of support system so he had to pull something out of his rear to keep the show going.

And then they needed "God" to end the show because there was no other way to end it.

And that's really what I expected from Voyager back then. Make the show about the characters, make them question whether it makes a lot of sense to keep adhering to Starfleet regulation when they're most likely not getting home anyway

They were just re-doing the same plot TOS and TNG had already done a couple of times.

And geez I mean DS9 was a space station... talk about constricting

DS9 had access to the Gamma Quadrant, the rest of the pre-existing Alpha Quadrant (so they didn't have to make anything new if they didn't want to) and the Defiant meant they could go anywhere in the Alpha Quadrant OR they could stay in the same place and tell stories about recurring characters.

That's far less constrained than VOY's premise.

The premise had the potential, and is not as constrained as it is being painted. I mean, this isn't BSG where humanity is on the edge of extinction. YOu have the idealized humanity of the Federation, here to champion ideals in the face of adversity.

You have the Maquis, who are freedom fighters, and are used to fighting alone, with no support system. So you use them to innovate ideas that Starfleet officers would not necessarily think of, because they are use to to relying on starbase facilities.

And then, in the Delta quadrant is the possibility of exploration. Of seeing something new, and fulfilling Starfleet's mandate, even so far away of home. And you have conflict between Starfleet and the Maquis, when exploration comes up because it is not focused on the goal of survival.

The Lost Ship motif is one that can work, if you don't keep yanking the rug out from under them every time they find some way to possibly get home. That is the reason why it often fails is because it is a cheap trick to say, "Will they get home?" only for the audience to know that they won't. But, unlike BSG, Voyager has an organization looking for them and trying to reach them. Shows like "Message in a Bottle" illustrate the idea of having Starfleet being making limited contact and giving them a sense of purpose and direction.

I'm going to take a moment from my spitballing to share a personal story. I am not a fan of DS9 who has spent the last ten years or so hating on Voyager. In point of fact, I only recently developed an enjoyment of DS9 last year, when revisisting several episodes. The only DS9 episode I can recall enjoying was "Trials and Tribbleations" because it featured TOS. I have always liked TOS and "Balance of Terror" is my favorite episode with "Undiscovered Country" being my favorite Trek film.

When Voyager came out, I was actually pretty interested. I can remember reading about how the make-up was done for the Kazon and Neelix, and thinking this sounds pretty cool. I liked how sleek Voyager looked as a ship, and Tom Paris was probably my favorite character, followed by the Doctor.

So, I don't feel it is very fair to say that Trek fans wanted to hate Voyager. I really don't think anyone starts out wanting to hate something or hoping that it sucks and then celebrating when they are right. But, I could be wrong.

For me, Voyager had a lot of potential, much more that I think it is ever given credit for by people, fans and nonfans alike. But, it wasted that potential and settled for TNG-light stories, with many of the other problems already listed.

The idea that the writers wrote themselves in to a corner, is something that I don't see. There was a lot of potential that often was not explored beyond one episode.

 

[RyuRoots]

Oh man, an Anwar thread. Haven't watched one of these in a while.

*graps popcorn*

 

[Anwar]

The premise had the potential, and is not as constrained as it is being painted. I mean, this isn't BSG where humanity is on the edge of extinction. YOu have the idealized humanity of the Federation, here to champion ideals in the face of adversity.

What the audience was expecting was for them to quickly renounce these ideals and become space pirates.

You have the Maquis, who are freedom fighters, and are used to fighting alone, with no support system. So you use them to innovate ideas that Starfleet officers would not necessarily think of, because they are use to to relying on starbase facilities.

They shot that down with the "No Support" part of the premise.

And then, in the Delta quadrant is the possibility of exploration. Of seeing something new, and fulfilling Starfleet's mandate, even so far away of home. And you have conflict between Starfleet and the Maquis, when exploration comes up because it is not focused on the goal of survival.

They were never going to stay in any area of the DQ long enough to flesh it out. Staying in any area longer than one episode or so was another thing the show got complaints over.

The Lost Ship motif is one that can work, if you don't keep yanking the rug out from under them every time they find some way to possibly get home.

Gilligan Syndrome. The show had a plot that couldn't be solved until the last episode or the show would be over. Not having a plot beyond that was another conceptual problem.

But, unlike BSG, Voyager has an organization looking for them and trying to reach them. Shows like "Message in a Bottle" illustrate the idea of having Starfleet being making limited contact and giving them a sense of purpose and direction.

And when they re-established contact, they got complaints over THAT too.

So, I don't feel it is very fair to say that Trek fans wanted to hate Voyager. I really don't think anyone starts out wanting to hate something or hoping that it sucks and then celebrating when they are right. But, I could be wrong.

Clearly, the audience had no real positivity for the show when it started. Maybe not hatred, but nothing good.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Are you really lost, when you basically know where you are?

Would it have helped Voyager if they had no idea at all where they'd 'landed'?

 

[Ithekro]

One difference in the "Lost ship" concepts in BSG and Voyager is that the Rag Tag Fleet has absolutely no idea where they are going. They are guessing with sometimes hints that they are heading for "Earth".

Voyager knows exactly where they are going in the long term. They just don't know exactly what is between point A and point B, at it is unexplorered space to the Federation.

A reasonable solution to the problem of the "boring" nature of the resets and being "lost" would be for them to find something like the quantum slipstream drive and manage to get home in season three or four. Then be purposely set back out to the Delta Quadrant with this new drive to explore.

 

[Anwar]

Are you really lost, when you basically know where you are?

Would it have helped Voyager if they had no idea at all where they'd 'landed'?

It would've solved some of the earlier problems and given them a subplot for the first season or so that could actually accomplish without ending the show: Figuring out where they are.

Also helps flesh out the area if they have to stay there for a while.

 

[Nightdiamond]

What I liked-- "Prototype" where they discover an android war going on. And "Course Oblivion" where a replica Voyager crew who thinks they're the actual Voyager crew.

Are you really lost, when you basically know where you are?

It didn't help any that Voyager eventually gained contact with Starfleet and Barclay and had two way communication with them.

Or that they would suddenly gain a few thousand light years closer to home.

So many missed opportunities. They could have had the ultimate debate between Maquis and Starfleet about the Cardassian /Maquis border situation.

Problem is, the crew (Maqui and Starfleet) never seemed real-- they seemed like generic background characters and who eventually all got along anyway.

Voyager was the beginning of the fatigue. The cast seemed to have the most dissatisfaction of all the TV crews except for TOS of course

They got along, but seemed to have big differences in the way the show was produced.

 

[Anwar]

Or that they would suddenly gain a few thousand light years closer to home.

What, it's OK for Kirk and Picard to do that but not VOY?

So many missed opportunities. They could have had the ultimate debate between Maquis and Starfleet about the Cardassian /Maquis border situation.

That's the problem, their main source of contention was now 75 years away with odds that they'd not be back in time to rejoin the fight. The Feds and Maquis had no quarrel aside from that.

Voyager was the beginning of the fatigue. The cast seemed to have the most dissatisfaction of all the TV crews except for TOS of course

They also cast bad actors for not-well made characters (Beltran as Chakotay and Wang as Kim being the prime offenders).