Voyager fans.. are you disappointed about Discovery?

[BillJ]

This is so fascinating.. I'm getting a real catch up on their appearances. Memory Alpha.. I will not plagiarise.. Memory Alpha..

You've shown nothing from TOS that shows Vulcan to be an noble culture. And you still haven't answered the question about how noble a society that limits the freedoms of its females can be. You never answered if you would feel like it was a noble culture if you were a female living in it.

I remember the dignity of other Vulcans when they were portrayed.

Which one's? The one who openly denigrated humans? The one who was cheating on Spock? The one who was in an open relationship with a betrothed woman? The one who wouldn't speak to his son for eighteen years over a career choice? Or the children who openly mocked and abused the one who was different? Those are the only one's we see in TOS/TAS. You were the one who said that the people working on the other show should respect the original creators work.

The Vulcans were every bit as violent and emotional as their human counterparts. That is from the culture we see in TOS, as envisioned by the writers/creators of that show.

 

[Refuge]

BillJ I actually went to quite a bit of time finding episode references that I believe show Vulcan history, philosophy and advancements. Did you want me to reference the examples you made? Why ask me to define the Vulcans who were portrayed with dignity as those you cherry picked? Do you really think the writers who were at pains to differentiate Spock from his human counterparts wanted us to think the logical, composed Vulcan was every bit the same as human ancestors? Why would they want such sameness? They didn't.

Still if you want to give me actual examples of your claims that Vulcans are a one dimensional anti-noble species , back it up. I sourced quotes and episode references, you have not. Go to it..

 

[Trekkin]

The creators of ENT were the same ones who made all the TNG-VOY examples. So no contradicting other 'original' creators there.

Which rules out all these:

This is so fascinating.. I'm getting a real catch up on their appearances. Memory Alpha.. I will not plagiarise.. Memory Alpha..

*The official First Contact between Vulcans and Humans came on April 5, 2063, when a Vulcan survey ship, the T'Plana-Hath, detected the warp flight of Zefram Cochrane's Phoenix. The Vulcans met with Cochrane at his launch site on the day following the flight. (Star Trek: First Contact)*

(So far Vulcans seem to be curious, a little controlling but still after order..)

*By the 21st and 22nd centuries, the Vulcans had also made contact with the Cardassians, Trill, Tholians, Klingons, and scores of other races. (DS9: "Destiny"; )*

And leaves:

As of the 23rd century, Vulcan had never been conquered in its collective memory. That memory went so far back that Vulcans could not conceive of a conqueror. (TOS: "The Immunity Syndrome")

In TOS: "The Conscience of the King", Spock declines to have a drink with McCoy by saying that his people were "spared the dubious benefits of alcohol"; McCoy scorns Spock's refusal by stating that he now knows why Vulcan was conquered. This would seem to contradict the above. A possible solution could be he is referring to the Romulan infiltration in 2154, which could be considered to be a conquest.*

So apparently being conquered (or maybe not), and being teetotalers, makes you 'noble.' I guess that means humanity is up for 'species of the year' then. We've been doing the first one on and off for our entire history!

Interesting you mentioned Immunity Syndrome though. The one which established that Vulcans segregate themselves within Starfleet? How very noble of them.

Still if you want to give me actual examples of your claims that Vulcans are a one dimensional anti-noble species

I seem to have missed where he claimed that. Quote and linky?

 

[BillJ]

Still if you want to give me actual examples of your claims that Vulcans are a one dimensional anti-noble species , back it up. I sourced quotes and episode references, you have not. Go to it..

You were the one that said Enterprise writers should've respected the original intent of the creators/writers of TOS.

There are three episodes that are dedicated to Vulcan culture/relationships in TOS. "Amok Time", "Journey to Babel" and "Yesteryear" (TAS). Not exactly sure where I'm not referencing specific instances and episodes. I've been doing it the entire discussion. Not sure how they don't carry weight for you in this discussion, considering everything I've referenced has appeared on screen.

Let's take a look at Spock in particular, he was condescending to his shipmates on more than one occasion on the superiority of Vulcan ways.

SPOCK: Interesting. Your Earth people glorify organised violence for forty centuries, but you imprison those who employ it privately.
MCCOY: And, of course, your people found an answer.
SPOCK: We disposed of emotion, Doctor. Where there is no emotion there is no motive for violence.

He was in a romantic relationship while he was betrothed to T'Pring (Leila Kalomi, "This Side of Paradise"), threatened to kill a shipmate (McCoy, "All Our Yesterdays").

 

[Refuge]

======
I don't obsess on the details of Discovery, when it will probably be another step downward, that misses the point and "updates" Trek so it's like all the bad TV around now.

While BillJ tries to do the impossible.. just back to the thread topic, though it is related. It's the "updates" that might be its undoing..

 

[Refuge]

You were the one that said Enterprise writers should've respected the original intent of the creators/writers of TOS.

There are three episodes that are dedicated to Vulcan culture/relationships in TOS. "Amok Time", "Journey to Babel" and "Yesteryear" (TAS). Not exactly sure where I'm not referencing specific instances and episodes. I've been doing it the entire discussion. Not sure how they don't carry weight for you in this discussion, considering everything I've referenced has appeared on screen.

Let's take a look at Spock in particular, he was condescending to his shipmates on more than one occasion on the superiority of Vulcan ways. He was in a romantic relationship while he was betrothed to T'Pring (Leila Kalomi, "This Side of Paradise"), threatened to kill a shipmate (McCoy, "All Our Yesterdays").

Spocks belief in the superiority of Vulcan ways? He was condescending? Is that the best you can do?

 

[BillJ]

Spocks belief in the superiority of Vulcan ways? He was condescending? Is that the best you can do?

If you don't sense a trend from your noble race, then there's nothing I can write that will change your mind. But, next time, don't set such an mark to knock down. Myself, and others, have shown that Vulcans are not a "noble" race. They are people, with just as many flaws and prejudices as any other Trek species.

And you still haven't answered the question about how you would feel to be a woman who is essentially owned in such a noble society.

 

[Trekkin]

Spocks belief in the superiority of Vulcan ways? He was condescending? Is that the best you can do?

No, he's just already covered 'child brides' and 'state-sanctioned arena-murder'.

Those examples would be from Amok Time, if you were wondering.

 

[Refuge]

If you don't sense a trend from your noble race, then there's nothing I can write that will change your mind. But, next time, don't set such an mark to knock down. Myself, and others, have shown that Vulcans are not a "noble" race. They are people, with just as many flaws and prejudices as any other Trek species.

And you still haven't answered the question about how you would feel to be a woman who is essentially owned in such a noble society.

No you haven't. Certainly not to my satisfaction. All I can see are random examples you've selected ignoring context and anything that would reflect that Vulcans had a history that encompased philosophy, control, growth and the seeking of the very principles that the Federation was based on. Not even human culture should be defined by one stage in its development. Spock wasn't exactly a Vulcan neanderthal.

 

[BillJ]

No you haven't. Certainly not to my satisfaction. All I can see are random examples you've selected ignoring context and anything that would reflect that Vulcans had a history that encompased philosophy, control, growth and the seeking of the very principles that the Federation was based on. Not even human culture should be defined by one stage in its development. Spock wasn't exactly a Vulcan neanderthal.

This doesn't even make any sense. To be completely honest. The only way we can judge a culture is on its values and customs. The values and customs were were shown were not those of an enlightened, noble society. At least, I personally frown on forced weddings and the ownership of women. I'm not "picking and choosing", I'm given the complete history of Vulcan culture as seen through TOS.

You are free to point out where the Vulcans are shown to be a noble culture in TOS.

 

[Trekkin]

No you haven't. Certainly not to my satisfaction. All I can see are random examples you've selected ignoring context and anything that would reflect that Vulcans had a history that encompased philosophy, control, growth and the seeking of the very principles that the Federation was based on. Not even human culture should be defined by one stage in its development. Spock wasn't exactly a Vulcan neanderthal.

Not in TOS they didn't. You see, Vulcan's are completely made up. They have exactly jack squat 'context' until some writer put it on screen.

And as it turns out, said people who put a lot of their nicer 'context' on screen, were the same bunch that did ENT. Long after the original creators died or stormed away from Trek in a Gene Roddenberry-inspired rage left the franchise. Go figure.

So...contradiction of original intent. Where?

 

[Refuge]

This doesn't even make any sense. To be completely honest. The only way we can judge a culture is on its values and customs. The values and customs were were shown were not those of an enlightened, noble society. At least, I personally frown on forced weddings and the ownership of women. I'm not "picking and choosing", I'm given the complete history of Vulcan culture as seen through TOS.

You are free to point out where the Vulcans are shown to be a noble culture in TOS.

Be honest you were not giving a complete history of Vulcan culture you were leaving things out that didn't fit your argument. It is flawed to insist that we can only judge a culture by its values and customs when you don't choose to acknowledge that Vulcans founded the Federation and the values that reflected its guiding principles. To ignore that a culture is not its people or its Vulcans. That Spock's nature should be ignored or reduced to selected events.

 

[Trekkin]

Humans, Andorians and Tellarites also founded the Federation. Are they all noble?

The poor, long forgotten, Tellarites. Who don't even get a Trekbbs emoji.

Dear DIS Writers: I want more Tellarites, plz. Try making them actual characters, and a little less...a bunch of stupid, boorish, paper-mâché lookin' bozos. I get enough of that on the train every morning. Yrs, Hela.

 

[Refuge]

Not in TOS they didn't. You see, Vulcan's are completely made up. They have exactly jack squat 'context' until some writer put it on screen.

And as it turns out, said people who put a lot of their nicer 'context' on screen, were the same bunch that did ENT. Long after the original creators died or stormed away from Trek in a Gene Roddenberry-inspired rage left the franchise. Go figure.

So...contradiction of original intent. Where?

Talking of making no sense.. the original creators who created Spock were not nice? Spock was jack squat But the ENT writers who were the nice ones but who made up post original stuff are the oracles??

Okay, that is very messed up.

 

[BillJ]

Be honest you were not giving a complete history of Vulcan culture you were leaving things out that didn't fit your argument. It is flawed to insist that we can only judge a culture by its values and customs when you choose to acknowledge that Vulcans founded the Federation and the values that reflected its guiding principles. To ignore that a culture is not its people or its Vulcans. That Spock's nature should be ignored or reduced to selected events.

You were the one that laid out the foundation of the discussion...

I think the (original) creation of a character or species is the foundation of it. Albeit sketchy, whatever was referenced in the Original (regards Vulcans in this case) should be left WITHOUT the nonsense of reinventing anything in a post production, even if that post production calls itself a pre-quel.

I used TOS as the basis of my argument. If you can think of anything Vulcan related in TOS (beyond Spock's a great guy, he's also half-human) that I've left out, then by all means bring it to the table.

Humans, Andorians and Tellarites also founded the Federation. Are they all noble?

The poor, long forgotten, Tellarites. Who don't even get a Trekbbs emoji.

Weren't Betazoids also founding members?

 

[Trekkin]

Weren't Betazoids also founding members?

I...don't think so?

I mean, that would have meant they were efficient at something.

Talking of making no sense.. the original creators who created Spock were not nice? Spock was jack squat But the ENT writers who were the nice ones but who made up post original stuff are the oracles??

Okay, that is very messed up.

That's some special reading-and-repeating skills you've got there. Or malicious ones.

Luckily, I'm a right doubt-giving benefactor. I mean, only a stupid and petty person would try the old 'outright lie about a posts content just to be an immature dick' ploy. There wouldn't be any of those sorts of people posting in here.

 

[Refuge]

You were the one that laid out the foundation of the discussion...

I did? It was actually an opinion I had, you know those things that are born of reaction and are one's own? I had the audacity to view Vulcans as having nobility. Spock my man or my Vulcan. Now I realise ENT came along after and shame on me but my view on Spock was mailny TOS but also the movies. However let's not have any latitude there and we won't mention the movies again. I also questioned the integrity of another writer messing with a different writers creation. How outrageous.

You guys get really carried away. Which brings me to the resolution. I have not changed my mind about anything because of anything that anyone has said. I like my point of view, it's a keeper.

 

[BillJ]

I had the audacity to view Vulcans as having nobility.

You still refuse to answer the question: if you were a female on Vulcan, would you think you were part of a noble society?

 

[Refuge]

I don't know.

 

[fireproof78]

I did? It was actually an opinion I had, you know those things that are born of reaction and are one's own? I had the audacity to view Vulcans as having nobility. Spock my man or my Vulcan. Now I realise ENT came along after and shame on me but my view on Spock was mailny TOS but also the movies. However let's not have any latitude there and we won't mention the movies again. I also questioned the integrity of another writer messing with a different writers creation. How outrageous.

You guys get really carried away. Which brings me to the resolution. I have not changed my mind about anything because of anything that anyone has said. I like my point of view, it's a keeper.

I'm more curious as to a definition of terms. What is "nobility" and how to the Vulcans embodied it?

How did another writer "mess with" someone's creation?

Finally, even Spock, the preeminent example, moved passed logic as the "best way" as he often relied upon in TOS. He was able to make peace with both halves of himself. In many ways, he moves past that logical Vulcan culture.