Voyager fans.. are you disappointed about Discovery?

[Refuge]

Isn't it boring and pointless to tell the backstory exactly as expected, though? Yes there may be misfires (the male Orions are the slaves!), but things like Spock being the guy running Kirk's infamous Kobayashi Maru test, or Data's granddad being involved with modified humans before switching to robotics as a means of creating "better" life, add extra layers to the backstories IMO.

No, I don't agree. Creating a backstory for a cheap rise is bad writing, like a ratings grab mentality. A certain amount of embellishment can dress up a past and be interesting, but where do you draw the line? If indeed Vulcan history is limited then they are fair game..

I hate the way it is done in characterizations. If Sherlock Holmes gets any younger he'll be needing a packed lunch and clues written in crayon to solve his cases. Sometimes the need to address something else ruins credibility.

 

[Refuge]

People can come up with wild explanations for why they like things. But "nobility" in Vulcans, I don't see it.

I did see it. Tuvok was very noble and didn't Spock die for the greater good?

 

[BillJ]

I did see it. Tuvok was very noble and didn't Spock die for the greater good?

I'm talking about the culture itself. Would you be okay with being property, to be fought over by two men and being forced to bed down with the victor? Would you see nobility in that? Would you see nobility in having to come every time your husband calls?

Vulcans are a passionate, violent race with a thin sheen of logic at the surface. A sheen that seems to come undone quite a bit. I can see bloody, emotional disagreements over the teachings of Surak. I can see that there would be a portion of the population that doesn't buy into logic and emotional submersion. I can see a portion of the population that would think Mind Melds are an invasion. Those things make Vulcans a more interesting, more layered culture.

 

[Refuge]

You know I could streamline examples that only highlight their nobility just as easily. Why ignore it? Nobility is a good thing.

 

[BillJ]

You know I could streamline examples that only highlight their nobility just as easily. Why ignore it? Nobility is a good thing.

You didn't answer my questions. Go ahead and point out the noble actions of the Vulcan culture.

 

[Trekkin]

The Romulans were the ones who wore 'noble/honourable' warrior culture as their hat. And by TNG, it had been transferred to the Klingons.

The Vulcan's aspired to logic and cold intellect, and 'nobility' can clash rather harshly with that. Its logical to stab the dangerously mutating (but still peaceful) Gary Mitchell in his sleep, but it sure ain't noble.

 

[BillJ]

Vulcan children are betrothed at a young age, but not only do they have their ability to make adult decisions taken away from them, they are forced into a mind link with each other.

Sounds noble to me.

 

[Refuge]

You didn't answer my questions. Go ahead and point out the noble actions of the Vulcan culture.

"I thought it was generally accepted, sir, that Vulcans are an advanced and most honorable race."
"They are, they are – and damned annoying at times."
"Yes, sir."
– Data and Leonard McCoy, 2364 ("Encounter at Farpoint")

I guess I'm going to have to compile evidence now that Vulcans were ever presented in a light of both noibility as in the noun and nobility as in the adjective. All these years of watching the beautifully composed characters of Spock and Tuvok . That a race that developed philosophy and logic to save themselves somehow lacked nobility. Rank and order..

Tuvok took many a beating to protect his crewman. Spock..where does one begin. They were products of their culture. They were examples of that culture before half of it was back storied.. Why try and reduce the qualities they possess? To deny that Vulcans were more than violent warring thugs?

 

[BillJ]

Tuvok took many a beating to protect his crewman. Spock..where does one begin. They were products of their culture. They were examples of that culture before half of it was back storied.. Why try and reduce the qualities they possess? To deny that Vulcans were more than violent warring thugs?

Good people are produced by non-noble cultures all the time.

I await your pointing out the noble aspects of Vulcan culture, using TOS as the baseline since nothing was supposed to be changed from the creators original intent.

I also await your answer on how noble you would think a culture is that practically owns its females.

 

[Trekkin]

Spock is half human. He was raised by a human mother. He spent a lot of his time on Earth, explicitly cut off from the Vulcan part of his family. Other Vulcans constantly shit on him for how human and different he is. His initial mission in life, is to ditch his annoying Human traits and be more Vulcan.

There's no ambiguity about Spock not being like all of the other reindeer, is what I'm saying.

So why is Spock, the literal child of two worlds, being held up as an example of how 'noble' purely Vulcan culture is?

 

[BillJ]

Spock is half human. He was raised by a human mother. He spent a lot of his time on Earth. Other Vulcans constantly shit on him for how human he is.

So why is Spock being held up as an example of Vulcan culture? The Vulcans certainly don't think he is.

Which brings up another point, in "Yesteryear" the Vulcan children openly mock and abuse Spock. I would think the adults would step in, in a noble culture. Plus, those children picked up the vibe that Spock was somehow lesser than them from someone. Likely the adults around them.

 

[Refuge]

Good people are produced by non-noble cultures all the time.

Cherry picking someone's culture to deny their philosophy and fullness is not representing it, so calling it a non-noble culture and denying what it produced I find small minded or something.. But don't get your panties in a wad, I will give you examples.

 

[Refuge]

Yeah species from mixed races should never represent one of those.. Naughty Spock, how dare anyone think he was.. Vulcan. Where did that crazy thought come from, lol.

 

[Trekkin]

Yeah species from mixed races should never represent one of those.. Naughty Spock, how dare anyone think he was.. Vulcan. Where did that crazy thought come from, lol.

A group elects an inidividual to represent them. They confer their approval for this person to speak or appear on behalf of all.

Anything else is presumption. Either on the individuals part, or the part of the person who assumes 'they share one trait, that means they're all the same.'

The Vulcan's do not approve of Spock. We get three major speaking Vulcans in TOS. One tries to kill him, one cuts him off for decades, and the other (who is the elected representative of their society) tells him off for bringing human cooties to his wedding.

 

[Tracy Trek]

There was just so little on Vulcans that fanon had pretty much taken over.

Perhaps I'm letting things I've taken from fanon color my perceptions.

 

[Refuge]

BillJ.. just want to get my assignment parameters correct. You want dictionary verifiable examples of nobility as in 'rank' and birthright as well as in acts of honor? If non-noble examples are to be the only ones referenced can I have the same latitude for noble ones.

Now what timeline again? If you draw upon pre-TOS am I referencing only TOS ones? Okay.. that makes sense. Given I think the TOS ones started all this. Can I use post TOS and movies? I think it's only fair the greater cultural as in ours, understanding of Vulcans be given a shout out. You know the average man or woman on the street.

Am I allowed a general impression too??? Or is that not part of the Star Trek experience?

 

[Refuge]

A group elects an inidividual to represent them.

The Vulcans do not elect Spock. Explicitly saying he's 'not one of us' is a bit of a giveaway.

Come on.. that's try hard.

Spock being Vulcan is part of his character, his mythology.

 

[Trekkin]

Come on.. that's try hard.

Spock being Vulcan is part of his character, his mythology.

'Part of' is the important word. He does not embody the culture.

As that particular culture is always quick to point out.

 

[Refuge]

You can try all the word games you like, Spock embodies Vulcan culture. You cannot remove that from him, it is in him. It is how he has been identified and what he aspired to. He is, in all his mixed race DNA still a product of that culture whether others like it or not.

As for my list..oh God it is tedious. Memory Alpha is my friend. All the bloody ENT refs ..

Homeworld. - founding member of Federation of Planets TOS.

The homeworld aspired to order, to rules and the upholding of honorable principles and directives . Led the way.. In one of our earliest insights to Vulcans that is a first impression.

 

[Trekkin]

You can try all the word games you like, Spock embodies Vulcan culture. You cannot remove that from him, it is in him. It is how he has been identified and what he aspired to. He is, in all his mixed race DNA still a product of that culture whether others like it or not.
.

Point out the 'word games.' I want quotes.

Otherwise, cut the accusatory bullshit and address or acquiesce my actual fucking points.

The homeworld aspired to order, to rules and the upholding of honorable principles and directives . Led the way.. In one of our earliest insights to Vulcans that is a first impression.

Where is that established? What 'honourable principles' exactly? Quotes and episodes.