Voyager ending

[Oddish]

That's part of it... both "The Visitor" and "Timeless" were all on pretty much the same theme. And they just plain did it better.

Of course, given that VOY was often a pale imitation that hammered the reset button and refused to do justice to a certain character... maybe a finale that was a pale imitation and hammered the reset button and offered justice to that character only to yank it away... maybe it was strangely, sadly appropriate.

 

[at Quark's]

maybe a finale that was a pale imitation and hammered the reset button and offered justice to that character only to yank it away

Honestly not sure what you mean by this? Yes, Kim is a captain in the alternate future in the beginning of the ep, but that's 26 years later. The episode ends with Voyager approaching Earth, and with all indications the crew (including Harry) will have a bright future (and probably a promotion very soon after they returned to earth). That we never hear anything from Harry again is not the fault of the episode. I mean, I would've agreed had Harrie died during the Borg battle or something like that.

 

[Dukhat]

You know, since we've been talking about Endgame, I'm really starting to rethink some things about Janeway's motives.

We learn in Star Trek '09 that Nero & Spock going back in time to the 2230's only created a new timeline going forward; it did not erase the old one.

Now with that info in hand, let's look at Admiral Janeway's actions. Despite a complete lack of concern from both her and the people helping her (Miral Paris, Reg Barclay, Harry Kim and the Klingons), that she will be erasing the current timeline and them along with it, she succeeds in doing so, all for the selfish reasons of keeping Chakotay and Seven alive and together (fuck you, Carey!)

But does she actually erase the timeline? Based on the logic shown in the Abrams films, all she would be doing is creating a new alternate timeline in which Voyager gets back to Earth in 2378 instead of 2394. The actual "prime" timeline where we see the events of 2404 would still exist, which would explain why Miral and everyone else doesn't seem to care that Janeway is doing this. Apparently all Admiral Janeway wants is to create an alternate universe where her own personal wants are fulfilled in some weird bastardization of 'therapy' for her. (I doubt that was the intention of the writers, but there you go.)

So there are three possibilities here:

1. Admiral Janeway went back in time and knowingly erased the 2404 timeline for her own personal selfish reasons.

2. Admiral Janeway went back in time to 2378 in an effort to create a new alternate branching-off timeline where Voyager got home early, Chakotay and Seven don't die and hook up instead, and Tuvok doesn't go crazy.

3. Admiral Janeway went back in time but wasn't aware if her actions would erase the timeline or create a new alternate one.

Here's the problem with option 1: Why on Earth would people like Miral, Barclay, Kim etc. be helping Janeway with her selfish scheme knowing that their entire existence along with their entire universe will be erased? And why would the supposed Temporal 'cops' from the 29th century allow this to happen, or let her bring future technology into the past?

Here's the problem with options 2 & 3: Knowing that Admiral Janeway would probably have to sacrifice herself by sabotaging the Borg with her pathogen, why would she even bother creating this alternate universe when she won't even be alive to see the fruits of her labor? (Especially since her changing the timeline resulted in not only Chakotay and Seven NOT hooking up or having anything to do with each other, but Seven becoming some silly vigilante and having a relationship with Raffi instead! As Jerry Seinfeld would say, not that there's anything wrong with that, but that was obviously not Admiral Janeway's intention for doing what she did.) What if Admiral Janeway's actions still ended up causing Chakotay and Seven to die, just in a different way? The former could easily have been killed when the Protostar was lost, and the latter could have been killed while working for the Fenris Rangers.

Clearly, Admiral Janeway's actions are not remotely logical, nor are the actions of the people helping her. Whether she set out to erase her timeline or create an alternate one, her motives simply don't stand up under close scrutiny.

 

[at Quark's]

^ Admiral Janeway seemed to have taken no-one into confidence initially, except for Barclay. (and possibly Tuvok, but he's insane). The rest (Torres, Miral, EMH, possibly others) were basically ordered around (and had different degrees of suspicion).

Ultimately, two other people lean what she's planning (EMH and Kim), and the three of them decide to keep things 'in the family'. Kim may ask critical questions but ultimately still seems to own her 'blindly loyal ensign'-level loyalty, despite him having become a Captain. Barclay in a sense also was 'rescued' by Voyager so obviously also has a great deal of loyalty, and the EMH literally had no life before Voyager.

 

[Oddish]

Honestly not sure what you mean by this? Yes, Kim is a captain in the alternate future in the beginning of the ep, but that's 26 years later. The episode ends with Voyager approaching Earth, and with all indications the crew (including Harry) will have a bright future (and probably a promotion very soon after they returned to earth). That we never hear anything from Harry again is not the fault of the episode. I mean, I would've agreed had Harrie died during the Borg battle or something like that.

We've seen six potential alternate futures where he either was promoted or almost certainly would be:
Non Sequiteur - Had the Harry of that timeline remained, he would have been prepared, and if his colleague was right, he left the room a lieutenant.
Before and After - Harry was a full lieutenant.
Timeless - Harry's long list of accolades almost certainly included promotion.
Endgame - Harry was a captain.
STO - Harry was a captain.
Picard S3 - Harry was supposed to appear as a captain.

But in the canonical, prime timeline, his fate remains unknown beyond the end of "Endgame". Ergo, his canonical rank for 30 years and counting... is ensign.

Ultimately, two other people lean what she's planning (EMH and Kim), and the three of them decide to keep things 'in the family'. Kim may ask critical questions but ultimately still seems to own her 'blindly loyal ensign'-level loyalty, despite him having become a Captain. Barclay in a sense also was 'rescued' by Voyager so obviously also has a great deal of loyalty, and the EMH literally had no life before Voyager.

True. So three of Harry's failed rank increases are in timelines he himself helped to engineer out of existence.

 

[at Quark's]

But in the canonical, prime timeline, his fate remains unknown beyond the end of "Endgame". Ergo, his canonical rank for 30 years and counting... is ensign.

True. Though I do believe that in the new timeline, he beamed down, had a happy reunion with his family, and got promoted soon afterwards. That is by far the most likely outcome, even if I never saw it. I'd tend to believe that in the new timeline, he'd also be a captain 26 years later.

BTW, I must have overlooked a few posts on the previous page, where you also said this explicitly.

 

[Oddish]

True. Though I do believe that in the new timeline, he beamed down, had a happy reunion with his family, and got promoted soon afterwards. That is by far the most likely outcome, even if I never saw it. I'd tend to believe that in the new timeline, he'd also be a captain 26 years later.

This is the fate for him that makes sense. But remember that in light of the rules laid down by the previous series, it made no sense for him to be stuck at ensign for 7 years... but it still happened.

 

[Frontis]

For me Voyager never was in another timeline than the previous series.

 

[Lynx]

We've seen six potential alternate futures where he either was promoted or almost certainly would be:
Non Sequiteur - Had the Harry of that timeline remained, he would have been prepared, and if his colleague was right, he left the room a lieutenant.
Before and After - Harry was a full lieutenant.
Timeless - Harry's long list of accolades almost certainly included promotion.
Endgame - Harry was a captain.
STO - Harry was a captain.
Picard S3 - Harry was supposed to appear as a captain.

But in the canonical, prime timeline, his fate remains unknown beyond the end of "Endgame". Ergo, his canonical rank for 30 years and counting... is ensign.


True. So three of Harry's failed rank increases are in timelines he himself helped to engineer out of existence.

True. Though I do believe that in the new timeline, he beamed down, had a happy reunion with his family, and got promoted soon afterwards. That is by far the most likely outcome, even if I never saw it. I'd tend to believe that in the new timeline, he'd also be a captain 26 years later.

BTW, I must have overlooked a few posts on the previous page, where you also said this explicitly.

This is the fate for him that makes sense. But remember that in light of the rules laid down by the previous series, it made no sense for him to be stuck at ensign for 7 years... but it still happened.

I don't want to defend the writers and their sloppy writing. Of course he should have been promoted.

But if I should try to come up with a logical explanation to why it didn't happen in the Star Trek universe, maybe Janeway didn't dare to promote Harry because there would be crewmembers who couldn't accept that "young ensign Kim" was promoted and they weren't.

Or she simply wasn't that fond of Harry for some reasons.

Maybe the truth is in the pictures below which I kindly provide to reveal the mystery.

Anyway, I assume that he got a promotion after coming home.



The reason why Harry wasn't promoted.


Finally it is revealed why Harry wasn't promoted.

KES: Sorry Harry. This is the reason why I was promoted and you weren't!


Sorry Harry, you joined the club too late!

 

[Oddish]

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[DonIago]

As per usual in threads focusing on "Endgame", I'll just opine that it would have been poetic justice if the timeline Janeway 'created' at the end was ultimately worse for everyone than the original one.

Other posters have more than sufficiently covered my preponderance of issues with the finale.

 

[Akiraprise]

Endgame is definitely a mixed bag. I know TPTB enjoyed going back to that Borg well but really they should have circled back around to Susperia a few times throughout the last season or two leading up to a final showdown with her. Maybe bringing the proper Kes back to help her friends out in the process. No time travel. The characters also deserved a few minutes at the end to reunite with family and friends. After all they spent 7 years trying to get back to them. I dunno, so many other paths they could have went down.

 

[Tosk]

I'll just opine that it would have been poetic justice if the timeline Janeway 'created' at the end was ultimately worse for everyone than the original one.

Thanks to recent shows, one might argue that the timeline she created is most definitely worse for multiple characters.

 

[Oddish]

Thanks to recent shows, one might argue that the timeline she created is most definitely worse for multiple characters.

Hmmm...
Chakotay: Better. He's not dead.
Tuvok: Better. His brain works.
Seven: Better. She's alive.
B'Elanna: About the same.
Tom: No way to know. In Endgame we see his distant future, in LD his immediate future.
EMH: Arguably worse, since he didn't marry that hot lady.
Harry: No way to know. If we go by his planned PIC appearance, he's a captain either way.
Neelix and Kes: Unknown.
Icheb: Way worse.

 

[DonIago]

Carey: "WTF Janeway? You couldn't travel back a week earlier!?!?!?!?!"
Sikarians: "We are Borg. Resistance is futile."
Hugh: No way to know for sure, but possibly worse.

 

[Oddish]

Carey was toast either timeline, but you're right. He deserved better.

 

[DonIago]

What pisses me off about Janeway's bringing Voyager back early is that there's an implication that for the rest of their original journey home Voyager didn't do anything that made any sort of meaningful difference, or at least not enough of one for Janeway to think it was worth finding an attempt to preserve. Given the changes we saw them effect in the DQ though, do we really accept that Voyager spent the rest of their journey doing nothing that mattered?

 

[Farscape One]

What pisses me off about Janeway's bringing Voyager back early is that there's an implication that for the rest of their original journey home Voyager didn't do anything that made any sort of meaningful difference, or at least not enough of one for Janeway to think it was worth finding an attempt to preserve. Given the changes we saw them effect in the DQ though, do we really accept that Voyager spent the rest of their journey doing nothing that mattered?

Absolutely agreed. Just by sheer amount of time spent in the Delta Quadrant that was lost, 16 years... that's more than double the time they actually were there. So, no meaningful impacts? Yet, according to Chakotay in "EYE OF THE NEEDLE", early season 1, they already 'made a huge impact'.

If their impact was huge after barely a month, how can they make no meaningful impacts in 16 years?

 

[DonIago]

If they prevented even one planetary catastrophe in those 16 years...and how many did they prevent in the time we watched them?...then Our Heroes could indirectly be responsible for the deaths of billions of people.

 

[Oddish]

Maybe "Endgame" would be easier to stomach if Voyager had done something shortly after Janeway's intervention. Something like Pike's impeccably Starfleet response to the Romulan attack, which ignited a galactic war.

That way, Janeway's not upending the timeline to save three lives, but rather billions.