doublegood
Fleet Captain
I should read those books. And you guys are right; I concede. Personally, I would just want to get home!
VOY Homecoming plot-hole
- Thread starter BrotherBenny
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I should read those books. And you guys are right; I concede. Personally, I would just want to get home!
About two and a half months, by my estimate.
Wow, it's a good thing they already had three years in which to come to terms with such changes, then. Maybe to be kind they should have taken an extra year or two to come back.
It wasn't a plothole, since, as stated, the books said they took it slow for 'readjustment' (you'll be able to recognize some fairly sizeable such holes as you progress). It was, however, a demonstration of the author's tendency towards hypersensitivity and making the characters so bleeding emotionally fragile. I dearly hope that in Kirsten Beyer's new book, the crew won't be so fucking emo. Also, that Astall dies a horrible, horrible death.
As for Chakotay and the Maquis - I think there was a goodly six month period before Chakotay went out again (they had to remove the future tech and refurbish the ship itself). The Maquis thing was barely mentioned; apparently there was a blanket pardon for Maquis fighters before Voyager ever got home. When I asked about this, I believe onetime editor John Ordover gave as a reason (and I'm paraphrasing) 'Starfleet recognized the Maquis were right about the Cardassians'. I personally don't think the situation was that cut and dry, but certainly the Maquis personnel above Voyager demonstrated that they had reformed, becoming functioning members of a Stafleet crew, to which they gave seven years of service. It would have been sheer spite to go after them.
Edit: Christopher's estimate is probably more accurate. It's been a while since I read these and obvious have no desire to do so again.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
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It was about two and a half months after returning that Chakotay was given command of Voyager, which was what the question was about, but you're right that it was a total of six months before the ship was actually relaunched.
Sorry if this is an old question, but wasn't Chakotay a Lt. Cmdr during the TV series? How could he be promoted directly to Captain?
The same way Janeway goes from Captain to Vice Admiral.
A rapid promotion following the return of Voyager where Command plays everything up to show that things are going okay and a lost ship is found...besides, Janeway is too dignified to resort to such things.
^ Yup, a number of officers skipped rank grades in the mass promotion ceremony on their return. Kim went from Ensign to full Lieutenant, for another example. Of course, both Chakotay and Kim had the requisite experience, I think. Janeway I would have preferred to stay in the big seat a while longer, but NEM had to be taken into account.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
And Tom Paris goes from Lieutenant JG to Lieutenant Commander.
Yeah, I somehow managed to persevere through the rest of the books, and also hope that Kirsten does a better job, although saying that, she can hardly do worse, can she? I don't have a problem with any of the new characters, but I do wish that the emotional stuff was toned down.
Christie can write pretty well for TheCW I think with all that angst stuff
Wow, it's a good thing they already had three years in which to come to terms with such changes, then. Maybe to be kind they should have taken an extra year or two to come back.
Three years to come to terms with it, sure, but still not expecting the VOY loved ones home for about sixty more years! Then along comes a transwarp hub and they're home.
That's a bit different, actually. At least in today's USN, which Starfleet generally closely resembles.
Ranks from Ensign to Captain are a matter of simple promotion: you gather experience, you gather service years, and you move up. But the lowest Admiral rank (current USN has this as Rear Admiral, Lower Half, but Starfleet would probably have a more dignified name) is not like that at all. It's a "holding rank", where you sit and wait to be assigned a flag job. When such a job comes along, you are appointed the rank you need for performing that job: perhaps Vice Admiral, perhaps Admiral, perhaps Fleet Admiral or Grand Admiral or whatnot. You don't go through all the flag ranks one by one, you directly jump to the one you need for the job. Then you serve in that job at that rank for a period of time, after which you lose both the job and the rank (and generally are supposed to retire at once, but theoretically you might return to service at Rear Admiral rank).
That's what the "Lower Half/Upper Half" business is all about: the Rear Admirals are all part of a waiting list, and the ones that the top half of that list get better pay and bigger epaulets than the ones at the bottom half.
Starfleet might not do it exactly like this - but if it were at least superficially similar, it would make perfect sense for Janeway to be a three-pip Admiral rather than one-pipper just a few years after her triumphant return.
That said, I'm generally against the idea of having to assume that any Trek character would skip rank. Usually there are better explanations than that. But the Voyager crew could plausibly warrant such an exception.
Timo Saloniemi
I thought that the one-pip flag officers were commodores...
^^Starfleet seems to have abandoned the use of "commodore" after about 2270, because we've only ever seen commodores in TOS and ENT.
And to Timo's complaint, I'd point out that Starfleet is not the US military so there's no reason why its rank structure or anything else should be assumed to be identical. Roddenberry tended to see it as a pseudomilitary organization in which rank was as much a job description as anything else.
And to Timo's complaint, I'd point out that Starfleet is not the US military so there's no reason why its rank structure or anything else should be assumed to be identical. Roddenberry tended to see it as a pseudomilitary organization in which rank was as much a job description as anything else.
In the TOS and TOS movie eras, the next rank after Captain did indeed seem to be Commodore.
However, in the TNG era, things may be a bit different. While we have never unambiguously seen a one-pip flag officer, we know that Captain Picard would have been promoted to some sort of an Admiral had he accepted the posting offered to him in "Coming of Age". It's a bit unlikely he would have been able to skip a rank, so this would rule out "Commodore" as the title of the lowest, one-pipped flag rank in the mid-24th century.
Also, the first season of TNG saw many an Admiral sporting a uniform that featured no pips. But "Conspiracy" showed us that the same uniform could feature one or two pips in addition to the original braid, suggesting that the three lowest Admiral ranks were no-pip, one-pip and two-pip in that scenario. Again, no room for Commodore in the setup.
I sincerely hope the TNG era Starfleet doesn't use the rank designation "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" for the unseen one-pippers. Perhaps there is a futuristic new designation, something like Branch Admiral or Staff Admiral or whatever. Or perhaps the designation really is Commodore, but the formal rules of address in the 24th century require that every Commodore be addressed as "Admiral", just like all the other flag officers.
I'm not really complaining. The USN way would provide the perfect excuse for what we see in Star Trek. And it would indeed fit the idea that (flag) rank is arbitrary, save for when it goes with the job.
Timo Saloniemi
However, in the TNG era, things may be a bit different. While we have never unambiguously seen a one-pip flag officer, we know that Captain Picard would have been promoted to some sort of an Admiral had he accepted the posting offered to him in "Coming of Age". It's a bit unlikely he would have been able to skip a rank, so this would rule out "Commodore" as the title of the lowest, one-pipped flag rank in the mid-24th century.
Also, the first season of TNG saw many an Admiral sporting a uniform that featured no pips. But "Conspiracy" showed us that the same uniform could feature one or two pips in addition to the original braid, suggesting that the three lowest Admiral ranks were no-pip, one-pip and two-pip in that scenario. Again, no room for Commodore in the setup.
I sincerely hope the TNG era Starfleet doesn't use the rank designation "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" for the unseen one-pippers. Perhaps there is a futuristic new designation, something like Branch Admiral or Staff Admiral or whatever. Or perhaps the designation really is Commodore, but the formal rules of address in the 24th century require that every Commodore be addressed as "Admiral", just like all the other flag officers.
I'm not really complaining. The USN way would provide the perfect excuse for what we see in Star Trek. And it would indeed fit the idea that (flag) rank is arbitrary, save for when it goes with the job.
Timo Saloniemi
The only use of "commodore" in the TOS movies is a reference to "Commodore Probert" in Epsilon 9 comm chatter in TMP. I'm not even sure that should count, since it was just filler material. I tend to assume that Kirk's TMP-era rank of rear admiral was what replaced the commodore rank; perhaps Probert was a holdover while the transition was underway, or perhaps the broadcaster at Eps 9 got the rank wrong out of old habit.
Yeah, that's my thinking about Kirk. The fact that he wasn't promoted to commodore -- or demoted to commodore in ST IV -- suggests that the rank had been retired in the movie era.
Honestly, I don't see why the first assumption, about Kirk being Commodore by another name, should be necessary. We know his rank and that of Probert coexisted, and it seems unnecessarily complicated to assume that Probert's rank was an honorary holdover of some sort.
Also, the sleeve braid on Kirk would be a perfect match for "one above Commodore", as it features the broad braid of Decker or Mendez (this time made of three narrow braid rather than one broad stretch of material) but adds one narrow braid. Fletcher's less than explicit scheme for ST2-6 caters for the existence of Commodore rank, too - and the scheme's known intention is for Kirk to hold the second-lowest flag rank, not the lowest.
As for Kirk's promotion and demotion, I don't see why he should be demoted only one step. The aim of the demotion, after all, was specifically to return him to a rank where he could plausibly continue to command a single starship (and not wreak wider havoc). Kirk would have gone down to Captain even had he been Grand Admiral before the demotion.
Had the demotion been a true punitive act, then perhaps a single step would have "made sense". But it was more of a publicity stunt anyway, a grudging reward rather than a punishment.
As regards the promotion, there's plenty of time for Kirk to first accept Commodore braid and then add to that, if we assume he moors the Enterprise at Captain rank in 2270 and first steps back aboard the vessel at Rear Admiral rank in 2275 or so. His position as Chief of SF Ops would call for the rapid repromotion, which (as suggested above) is how a real-world navy would handle such matters.
Timo Saloniemi
Also, the sleeve braid on Kirk would be a perfect match for "one above Commodore", as it features the broad braid of Decker or Mendez (this time made of three narrow braid rather than one broad stretch of material) but adds one narrow braid. Fletcher's less than explicit scheme for ST2-6 caters for the existence of Commodore rank, too - and the scheme's known intention is for Kirk to hold the second-lowest flag rank, not the lowest.
As for Kirk's promotion and demotion, I don't see why he should be demoted only one step. The aim of the demotion, after all, was specifically to return him to a rank where he could plausibly continue to command a single starship (and not wreak wider havoc). Kirk would have gone down to Captain even had he been Grand Admiral before the demotion.
Had the demotion been a true punitive act, then perhaps a single step would have "made sense". But it was more of a publicity stunt anyway, a grudging reward rather than a punishment.
As regards the promotion, there's plenty of time for Kirk to first accept Commodore braid and then add to that, if we assume he moors the Enterprise at Captain rank in 2270 and first steps back aboard the vessel at Rear Admiral rank in 2275 or so. His position as Chief of SF Ops would call for the rapid repromotion, which (as suggested above) is how a real-world navy would handle such matters.
Timo Saloniemi
As I said, the "Commodore Probert" line was a throwaway bit of walla, and if you ask me, treatings things like that as equal in importance to actual story points is what's "unnecessarily complicated." I'm perfectly happy to ignore the reference altogether; I just threw out that rationalization for the benefit of those who might have trouble dismissing it.
Sure, we can throw out whatever we please - for example, we could say that Kirk's rank braid was that of Captain all along, as the one back at SF HQ would be just a "costuming detail" to be ignored.
But dropping the "Commodore Probert" walla would be a change to the movie, whereas accepting it would be a no change option that doesn't involve any sort of action or assumption on the part of the audience. It's what we have been given, and there's nothing wrong with it, so why beg to differ?
There is no pressing reason NOT to have Commodores in Starfleet in the 23rd century, right until ST4 at least (where the last known rank pin intended to denote Commodore rank appears), and probably well into the 24th century too (as the general pin scheme involving Commodore persists to the 2340s at least). The first time we get any sort of incentive to remove Commodore from our vocabulary is TNG "Coming of Age".
Timo Saloniemi
But dropping the "Commodore Probert" walla would be a change to the movie, whereas accepting it would be a no change option that doesn't involve any sort of action or assumption on the part of the audience. It's what we have been given, and there's nothing wrong with it, so why beg to differ?
There is no pressing reason NOT to have Commodores in Starfleet in the 23rd century, right until ST4 at least (where the last known rank pin intended to denote Commodore rank appears), and probably well into the 24th century too (as the general pin scheme involving Commodore persists to the 2340s at least). The first time we get any sort of incentive to remove Commodore from our vocabulary is TNG "Coming of Age".
Timo Saloniemi
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