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Violent Protests in Baltimore

Is the violence by Baltimore Protestors Justified?


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I still think video cameras are the solution; posting them on Facebook or otherwise circulating them.

Video cameras will help, but they should normally be available only for supervisors, investigators, etc. to view. Posting them publicly would create a whole new set of safety, legal, and privacy issues. Imagine being the victim of or witness to a crime, and having your interaction with the police made public...

I'm not referring to cameras on police officers, to which the public often will not have access anyway. I am referring to individuals recording their own interactions with law enforcement and publicizing questionable behavior. This has already gained traction, and I believe is a tool for keeping police officers honest. Anything that happens in public is public domain, not private.
 
Yeah, if there's anything we have a shortage of, it's police talking about how hard they have it. :rolleyes:

Remember the story from earlier in the day of the riots? The all the local gangs were uniting to kill cops?

Whatever happened to that?
 
I still think video cameras are the solution; posting them on Facebook or otherwise circulating them.

Video cameras will help, but they should normally be available only for supervisors, investigators, etc. to view. Posting them publicly would create a whole new set of safety, legal, and privacy issues. Imagine being the victim of or witness to a crime, and having your interaction with the police made public...

I'm not referring to cameras on police officers, to which the public often will not have access anyway. I am referring to individuals recording their own interactions with law enforcement and publicizing questionable behavior. This has already gained traction, and I believe is a tool for keeping police officers honest. Anything that happens in public is public domain, not private.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

Yes, of course, citizens' videos are already helping. But the only long-term solution is changing the culture/attitudes in many police departments and in US society.
 
Could always do like the UK and have closed-circuit cameras everywhere.

I'd rather not, for all sorts of civil liberties concerns and reasons. That said, more cameras is a good idea and they should be on officers' uniforms and on as well as inside their patrol cars - and we need to find some realistic and tamper-proof ways to prevent bad officers from altering the recordings and/or removing the cameras from their bodies while they're on duty and subject to the possibility of terrible behavior.

Bad cops are the problem, not all of society. The fewer closed-circuit cameras on every street corner the better for all of us whether we sometimes realize it or not.
 
Could always do like the UK and have closed-circuit cameras everywhere.

I'd rather not, for all sorts of civil liberties concerns and reasons. That said, more cameras is a good idea and they should be on officers' uniforms and on as well as inside their patrol cars - and we need to find some realistic and tamper-proof ways to prevent bad officers from altering the recordings and/or removing the cameras from their bodies while they're on duty and subject to the possibility of terrible behavior.

Bad cops are the problem, not all of society. The fewer closed-circuit cameras on every street corner the better for all of us whether we sometimes realize it or not.

^ Agree
 
Could always do like the UK and have closed-circuit cameras everywhere.

Bad cops are the problem, not all of society.
No. "Bad cops" are not "the problem". That's a gross oversimplification that ignores the fact that supposed "good cops" are in droves silent and complicit in the abuse that goes on at the hands of "bad cops." Put simply: as long as entire police forces are happy to cover up the crimes of other officers, to respond to the legitimate anger of black communities with further violence and oppression, and as long as the entire system backs them up, AND the society housing said system encourages and reinforces the attitudes and policies that keep minorities violently oppressed - as long as that's all true, then "all of society" IS the problem. Because this IS our society. The incredible injustice we've been seeing has been happening for a long time now, and hardly anything has been done about it because "society" has been unacceptable slow to even acknowledge the real problems (many still don't!), let alone begin to make real changes.

The fewer closed-circuit cameras on every street corner the better for all of us whether we sometimes realize it or not.
I'll let people who live in the UK comment on the practical effects of CCTVs in-depth if they so choose, but I've never heard any trustworthy source verify any of the supremely negative things that some people like to assume would happen with such a system. I have to say this assumption that OUR way, not THEIR way, is better for everyone whether we know it or not just sounds like nationalistic fear-mongering and American exceptionalism to me.

ETA: though granted, there would certainly be a legit issue with the fact that in all likelihood, control of such a system and who gets to see what footage and etc would probably be in the hands OF law enforcement, and I certainly wouldn't think that's a good idea in the US. But if instead, they were subject mostly or entirely to the control of some kind of civilian oversight board, I'd say such a system would absolutely be worth considering.
 
For what it's worth, when I say "bad cops" I do mean all of them complicit in the silence and the culture that protects the worst among them. It wasn't meant to be any kind of gross oversimplification nor was it, it was just the scarcity of words I used, nothing more.

I agree with most of what you posted, I just happened to phrase my earlier post in a way that didn't on the sruface seem like it.

And no, the CCTV remark wasn't any sort of thinly-veiled "nationalism" or "exceptionalism," just cynicism related to the very issues you spelled out in your concluding paragraph. Abuse of a widespread electronic surveillance system can become a very real possibility and if we ever do expand the use of cameras in public we'd better be damn sure the right eyes are watching and there are proper controls and protections in place. It's a pretty common concern over here with a lot of people on all sides of the political spectrum.
 
And what about people who don't have smartphones or cellphones? Have them carry a camcorder everywhere they go?

The point is that most people do have smart phones, and the threat of being recorded contributes to keeping law enforcement honest...

Except all the times they try and steal/smash/take smartphones or try and prevent people from recording or intimidate people to delete the video. A technological solution is only a band-aid. Same with bodycams, there will always be ways to get around them. Real reform is needed not just bandaids for what is equivalent to a gaping wound.
 
And what about people who don't have smartphones or cellphones? Have them carry a camcorder everywhere they go?

The point is that most people do have smart phones, and the threat of being recorded contributes to keeping law enforcement honest...

Except all the times they try and steal/smash/take smartphones or try and prevent people from recording or intimidate people to delete the video. A technological solution is only a band-aid. Same with bodycams, there will always be ways to get around them. Real reform is needed not just bandaids for what is equivalent to a gaping wound.

I disagree that its just a band aid. Law enforcement make up less than 1% of the population. They can't break and destroy every single phone. Documentation of incidents (via cell phone video cameras) will lead to reform.
 
But so will training, accountability and MAJOR Culture Change.
(Sorry, late to the discussion. Just woke up and immediately looked for cameras.)

Not a fan of Cameras everywhere. And here, they are EVERYwhere. If that is what we have come to, then something waaaayyyyyyy more fundamental is wrong with us and our present state of society!
 
They can't confiscate or break every smartphone or camera, but if they break even one or two of them that's too many and a symptom of a pretty dysfunctional and authoritarian attitude towards fellow citizens of a democratic and (supposedly) free society. Even one incident like this per year would be a travesty because cops shouldn't be doing that - at all. For any half-baked reason they can come up with to excuse it.
 
But so will training, accountability and MAJOR Culture Change.
(Sorry, late to the discussion. Just woke up and immediately looked for cameras.)

Not a fan of Cameras everywhere. And here, they are EVERYwhere. If that is what we have come to, then something waaaayyyyyyy more fundamental is wrong with us and our present state of society!

I sympathize. Government cameras everywhere (i.e., "big brother") is not a positive society in which to live. However, people being able to protect themselves with personal cell phone cameras is becoming a necessity.

They can't confiscate or break every smartphone or camera, but if they break even one or two of them that's too many and a symptom of a pretty dysfunctional and authoritarian attitude towards fellow citizens of a democratic and (supposedly) free society. Even one incident like this per year would be a travesty because cops shouldn't be doing that - at all. For any half-baked reason they can come up with to excuse it.

Someone posted a video of a police officer smashing someone's camera (I forget who). It absolutely happens, among other things...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfyaKG_tE5M
 
And no, the CCTV remark wasn't any sort of thinly-veiled "nationalism" or "exceptionalism," just cynicism related to the very issues you spelled out in your concluding paragraph. Abuse of a widespread electronic surveillance system can become a very real possibility and if we ever do expand the use of cameras in public we'd better be damn sure the right eyes are watching and there are proper controls and protections in place. It's a pretty common concern over here with a lot of people on all sides of the political spectrum.
Conceded; I jumped the gun a bit there. I'm used to hearing responses in reaction to the idea of having more cameras around in general, i.e. in response to the broad strokes of the concept itself, that it will inevitably lead to some kind of fascist dystopia. Certainly in the US in particular, there would be major concerns about who would be using those cameras, and in what way, because of the actions of the group which most requires examination and reform: law enforcement.

I stand by what I said about the rest, though. I do view it as a simplification because you said that bad cops are to blame and "all of society" isn't. I specifically disagree with that part. "American society" IS to blame. The "bad cops who are doing bad things" aren't a "them" that you can target and then remove from their positions of authority. It's not that simple. America, and by that I mean mainly and overwhelmingly "white America", is culpable for creating the atmosphere that allows these things to happen. Culture and attitudes and the ability of authority figures to abuse their power don't just spring up out of nowhere. Our society fosters an environment that tolerates police abuses of power, that tolerates other cops covering up those abuses, that refuses to hold ANYONE accountable for the unjustified murder of black people, and instead ballyhoos about problems within "the black community" and asks them to sit calmly at the negotiating table and not get out of line while this country's racist, oppressive power structure professes that it wants to help them and then simply maintains the status quo.

The point is that most people do have smart phones, and the threat of being recorded contributes to keeping law enforcement honest...

Except all the times they try and steal/smash/take smartphones or try and prevent people from recording or intimidate people to delete the video. A technological solution is only a band-aid. Same with bodycams, there will always be ways to get around them. Real reform is needed not just bandaids for what is equivalent to a gaping wound.

I disagree that its just a band aid. Law enforcement make up less than 1% of the population. They can't break and destroy every single phone. Documentation of incidents (via cell phone video cameras) will lead to reform.
That doesn't make any sense. They don't need to break or confiscate or destroy EVERY single phone. Just the ones filming them at the time of an incident. Just the devices belonging to people who have one at the time they witness the police confronting someone and then decide to stop and film it. Far from "all the phones in America". Besides which, incidents being caught on film has been FAR from some kind of shoe-in that appropriate action will be taken against the officers committing the acts, as we have seen.

Getting the crimes committed by police officers on film is a good thing, sure; no one is disputing that. But by themselves, Hound of UIster is right that they are a band-aid. At best they can be viewed as a contributor toward making the process of reforms and cultural shifts easier, but those reforms and shifts are still A) massive in scope, and B) absolutely necessary if we are to have any hope of truly curbing this problem.
 
That doesn't make any sense. They don't need to break or confiscate or destroy EVERY single phone. Just the ones filming them at the time of an incident. Just the devices belonging to people who have one at the time they witness the police confronting someone and then decide to stop and film it.

Which law enforcement has far from succeeded in doing. Have you tried doing a search of "police brutality" on you tube much lately?

Far from "all the phones in America". Besides which, incidents being caught on film has been FAR from some kind of shoe-in that appropriate action will be taken against the officers committing the acts, as we have seen.

Not a "shoe-in" but at some point judges, officals, and other law enforcement can't ignore that much documentation. It does not go unnoticed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ga4ACZY9jg

watch
 
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Unnoticed? Probably not.

Will they care enough to actually take the concrete steps to do anything of lasting value about them? That's the question. Bureaucracies are notoriously slow and often very shitty when it comes to affecting necessary change and it sometimes has to be forced on them from outside.
 
Unnoticed? Probably not.

Will they care enough to actually take the concrete steps to do anything of lasting value about them? That's the question.

That last video I posted leans in the direction of taking concrete steps to resolve dirty police work.
 
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