Vina quote from The Cage

[Phoenix219]

Wonder how it would look if they got Anson Mount to play Pike in a new version of The Cage? Trouble is they'd probably add Burnham to the cast as well! I'm still thinking here that the Talosians are going to turn up somehow in DSC!
JB

In preparation for Discovery Season 2, I recently rewatched The Cage. I didn't know what thread to post this question in, so this is as good a one as any. How did the senior bridge staff get pictures/drawings of the Talosians and have any idea about their mental abilities, other then inference from the disappearing crash survivors? It looked to me like Pike was clearly in the elevator being kidnapped before the landing party caught sight of what was going on. Am I completely off base here?

I'd rather not see The Cage remade. According to a timeline I found online, Pike already went to Talos before the first season of Discovery.

Yeah - he already went through those learning experiences, and is thus less burdened now then he was in the Cage. Any personality differences can be attributed to this growth.

 

[Timo]

Heh, good question! We might assume one of the landing party did glimpse what was happening, which is why we have this "witness description drawing" rather than, say, a high quality 3D image from somebody's tricorder.

The landing party splits to do diverse duties when Pike and Vina wander off. Boyce for one is elsewhere when the survivor illusion ceases to be. But the five sidekicks then gather together while the kidnapping proceeds, and then rush to the site in one file. Tyler is the first; no particular reason why he couldn't have gotten a glimpse before the doors slid shut. But Spock was right behind him and could have seen with great Vulcan clarity, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[thribs]

Is that right? Where does this come from?

In a novel, which I know isn’t canon but it must have come from somewhere.

 

[MAGolding]

How old would you put Vina? She was wiser than she let on as indicated with her observation of the Talosians. Number One fell short of saying it, but she indicated that Vina is probably older that Pike, maybe by many years:

ONE: Well, shall we do a little time computation? There was a Vina listed on that expedition as an adult crewman. Now, adding eighteen years to your age then.​

Based on her appearance when her illusion of beauty was dropped, I'll put her at ~65 years old. All the men in the exposition were fairly old, in their 60's. Any other thoughts?

If Vina was 21 to 65 at the time of the crash, she would be about 39 to 83 in "The Cage" and about 52 to 96 in "The Menagerie" if still alive. If Vina was 18 to 75 at the time of the crash she would be about 36 to 93 in "The Cage" and about 49 to 106 in "The Menagerie" if still alive.

Compare those age ranges with the fact that women, even those not put back together after terrible injuries, tend to loose the ability to bear children in their forties, and that Keiko in DS9 was apparently born when her mother was about sixty.

Of course nobody knows if the Columbia was a real ship that really crashed on Talso IV at a time that was really 18 years before the Cage" or if Vina was really on the Columbia or if Vina really was the unspecified adult age at the time of the crash that Number One mentioned. Thus it is possible that Vina, if real, could have been older or younger than the calculated age range.

Number one's said:

ONE: Well, shall we do a little time computation? There was a Vina listed on that expedition as an adult crewman. Now, adding eighteen years to your age then.

That is interesting if accurate and not falsified for the purpose of the illusion. Number one doesn't say "adult" or "crewman" as she would if one word was sufficient. She says "adult crewman" as if the complete phrase is necessary to specify Vina's position sufficiently. This implies that there could possibly have been people on ships like the Columbia who were not crewmen, agreeing with the illusion including a survivor describing the survivors as scientists. Thus exploring vessels like the Columbia allegedly was might possibly carry scientists as well as crew members.

Note that Number One considered it necessary to modify "crewman" with "adult". I believe Susan Oliver (born 13 February 1932).was 32 years and 9 to 10 months old when "The Cage was filmed 27 November to 18 December 1964. When Vina first appeared she was said to have been born about the time of the crash about 18 years ago, and in Vina's next scene Pike noted she looked older than before. We might guess than Vina appeared about Susan Oliver's age of 32 when Number One specified that there had been an adult crewman named Vina on the Columbia. 32 minus 18 equals 14. Of course Vina in the illusion might have looked a few years younger than 32.

So apparently Number One considered it necessary to specify that crewman Vina was an adult crewman and thus could not possibly look only about 32 after 18 years. And this rather implies that some crewman on exploration ships like the Columbia were sometimes kids, presumably trainees of some sort.

And of course one might indulge in a lot of speculation about why Vina was described as a "crewman" instead of "crewwoman", "crewperson", or "crewbeing". But I guess I will be content to suggest that man was used in the general sense of "human being" instead of the more specific sense of "adult human being of the male gender".

 

[Henoch]

Yes, Vina was a adult crewman on the ship based on Number One's records, so, lets assume she was not one of the scientists. This could make her younger than all the older scientists, but it doesn't guarantee it. Either way, Vina looked old when her illusion of beauty was dropped for Pike. Her hair was all grey and face showed wrinkles, neither of which looked like they were a result of the accident and botched reconstruction. It's vexing.

 

[johnnybear]

In preparation for Discovery Season 2, I recently rewatched The Cage. I didn't know what thread to post this question in, so this is as good a one as any. How did the senior bridge staff get pictures/drawings of the Talosians and have any idea about their mental abilities, other then inference from the disappearing crash survivors? It looked to me like Pike was clearly in the elevator being kidnapped before the landing party caught sight of what was going on. Am I completely off base here?

Very good observation there, Phoe! I sort of thought this myself but it never really became a question! And that scene is only in The Cage and not The Menagerie so do we count it or not? Plus the story would have revealed that at least one of the crew did see the Talosians as they disappeared underneath the ground I'm guessing!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

Loved Mark Lenard but Frain is pretty good.

To be honest I wouldn't rate Frain as a great actor rather just adequate! I mean he plays Sarek with an American style accent where as he is English and Mark Lenard who was American played it with a neutral accent, much more delicate and thought out!
JB

 

[Marsden]

And of course one might indulge in a lot of speculation about why Vina was described as a "crewman" instead of "crewwoman", "crewperson", or "crewbeing". But I guess I will be content to suggest that man was used in the general sense of "human being" instead of the more specific sense of "adult human being of the male gender".

Because crewman was the correct term and they don't engage in petty semantics in the 23rd century. Just ask Mr. Saavik.

 

[T'Bonz]

To be honest I wouldn't rate Frain as a great actor rather just adequate! I mean he plays Sarek with an American style accent where as he is English and Mark Lenard who was American played it with a neutral accent, much more delicate and thought out!
JB

Well, unfortunately Lenard is no longer with us, so we must make do.

 

[scotpens]

The Talosians' use of their advanced mental powers was clearly meant to be analogous to an addictive drug. Vina specifically says, "They found it's a trap, like a narcotic." Later, in the picnic scene, Pike says, "You told me once they used illusions as a narcotic -- that they couldn't repair the machines left by their ancestors. Is that why they want us, to build a colony of slaves?"

I wonder how many people in the audience understood Vina's speech in its first run, rather our audience here who take the pleasure to watch the show in reruns, DVD, BluRay, plus get to read transcripts and analyze the implications of the speech years after the first run. During its first run in TNG, the drug speech was obvious to me. Maybe adults got it, but kids not so.

Unlike the drug analogy in "The Cage," Tasha Yar's drug speech to Wesley in "Symbiosis" was about as subtle as your typical Afterschool Special.

 

[Timo]

That Numero Uno speaks of "adult crewmen" seems to me like a good opening to speculate that the Columbia had crew and other adults, rather than adult crewmen and non-adult crewmen. "Doctor Theodore Haskins" doesn't seem to hold rank, at any rate...

What sort of a ship might the Columbia have been? A University class Starfleet survey ship with a few civilians mingling with the science officers? Or a private vessel chartered by the ACI? The usual "She was reported missing in this sector X years ago" bit was completely left out from the adventure, perhaps suggesting the ship flew under Starfleet's radar.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[scotpens]

What sort of a ship might the Columbia have been? A University class Starfleet survey ship with a few civilians mingling with the science officers? Or a private vessel chartered by the ACI? The usual "She was reported missing in this sector X years ago" bit was completely left out from the adventure, perhaps suggesting the ship flew under Starfleet's radar.

You must have forgotten the part where Spock says, "Their call letters check with a survey expedition, SS Columbia. It disappeared in that region approximately eighteen years ago."

 

[Timo]

Oops, yes, but that is the question: did this survey expedition charter a civilian ship or fly/be a Starfleet one?

Saying "essess" may indicate civilian status. Or then not. This has never been established one way or another; only the "youessess=Starfleet" part is well supported.

(Fancy that nobody would bother to come and look for 18 years! Even though it's only six days from SB11 and all.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

Thirteen years earlier, Starbase 11 wasn't there yet. In fact, speculatively speaking, Starbase 11 may have been built to enforce the ban on contact with Talos.

 

[Henoch]

Thirteen years earlier, Starbase 11 wasn't there yet. In fact, speculatively speaking, Starbase 11 may have been built to enforce the ban on contact with Talos.

The base does have that new Starbase smell. The skyline has several tall cranes, maybe for building construction. The base seemed fairly busy, too, suggesting it is now near major shipping lanes. The Federation could have migrated around and past the Talos system over the last 13 years, so, enforcement of the Talos ban could be one important mission for the starbase. If Talos enforcement is a mission, then it must be fairly close to the Talos system.

(Fancy that nobody would bother to come and look for 18 years! Even though it's only six days from SB11 and all.)

Exploration 18 years before the CAGE was extremely dangerous. Or maybe the Talosians blocked Starfleet's thoughts to explore the star group to keep their existence secret. The only reason Pike found the wreck was with a false radio distress call, and he was 18 lys out. The reach of the Talosian mind illusions to go 18 lys and go to Starbase 11 is impressive. They were probably still mind-linked to Pike (he would be unaware of it), so, they were aware of his accident. Their mind power reached out to Spock (wherever he was at the moment) to get his physical assistance to bring Pike back to them. Easy-Peasy.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

(Fancy that nobody would bother to come and look for 18 years! Even though it's only six days from SB11 and all.)

Thirteen years earlier, Starbase 11 wasn't there yet. In fact, speculatively speaking, Starbase 11 may have been built to enforce the ban on contact with Talos.

And don't forget that there was apparently at least one substantial breakthrough in warp speed since the S.S. Columbia was originally lost. ("And you won't believe how fast you can get back. Well, the time barrier's been broken. Our new ships can--") So even if Starbase 11 was already around 18 years before "The Cage," it may have taken a lot longer than six days to get to Talos IV in 2236.

But since the Enterprise was headed to the Vega Colony to tend to their sick & injured instead of Starbase 11, SB11 likely wasn't built or open for business yet in 2254.

 

[johnnybear]

You must have forgotten the part where Spock says, "Their call letters check with a survey expedition. SS Columbia. It disappeared in that region approximately eighteen years ago."

In his best shouty bit to date too!
JB

 

[Timo]

And don't forget that there was apparently at least one substantial breakthrough in warp speed since the S.S. Columbia was originally lost. ("And you won't believe how fast you can get back. Well, the time barrier's been broken. Our new ships can--") So even if Starbase 11 was already around 18 years before "The Cage," it may have taken a lot longer than six days to get to Talos IV in 2236.

The timing of this breakthrough is the question, I guess. That, and its magnitude, and yes, yes, the obligatory fanatical devotion to the Pope, too.

DSC now shows ships from the same general era. Some of them are new, some are old, although we still don't know for sure which is which. None display explicit speed advantages or disadvantages, or the inability to go from system to system in the same plot time as in TOS.

But the real issue there would seem to be that the Enterprise herself is old. About as old as the launch of the Columbia, it seems. The Columbia team being unaware of this breakthrough in speed is cutting it close, less than a decade - unless we assume ships of the Enterprise type did not achieve great speeds quite from the get-go yet. Personally, I'd now like to assume the type as such is older than NCC-1701, but the high performance is unique to the ships from NCC-1700 on (even if later retrofitted to NCC-1017 or whatnot), and indeed a product of the 2240s.

I'd also like to keep the magnitude of the speed hop small, but admittedly we still don't have good datapoints on how (maximum) warp speeds evolved between the 2150s and the 2240s.

But since the Enterprise was headed to the Vega Colony to tend to their sick & injured instead of Starbase 11, SB11 likely wasn't built or open for business yet in 2254.

Perhaps Vega would be better equipped, though? But when Janice Lester in Kirk's body insists on taking "patient Lester" to the Benecia Colony, Spock plausibly argues that a totally random starbase directly on their route would be the medically superior option, in addition to being closer.

Anybody flying from "Rigel" to "Vega" is already spanning considerable distances anyway, assuming the Trek galaxy isn't labeled totally differently from ours. Why isn't Pike going to some facility that does not sit right next to Earth like Vega does? Indeed, why not go directly to Earth? Is Pike perhaps on a mission to go to Vega anyway, and the casualties are but a minor side issue there?

Or is this place one of 'em Greek Letter Vegas, say, Epsilon Vega? That is, a location unrelated to the star Vega except in the sense that the car make Saturn is related to the planet Saturn. Perhaps the Epsilon Vega dilithium cracking plant is the very closest option for Pike right after leaving Rigel - but a detour to this automated facility still makes Pike take a route virtually never traveled, hence his unique falling victim to the Talosians. Starbase 11 might be just around the bend, but it would mean an extra six days from where Pike is looking.

(Okay, so automated industrial plants might sound like an odd choice for treating casualties. But Delta Vega still had a "dispensary" and other creature comforts, and might have provided Pike with things his starship was short on.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The timing of this breakthrough is the question, I guess. That, and its magnitude, and yes, yes, the obligatory fanatical devotion to the Pope, too.

I like you.

I'd also like to keep the magnitude of the speed hop small, but admittedly we still don't have good datapoints on how (maximum) warp speeds evolved between the 2150s and the 2240s.

True. I'm sure that when Roddenberry wrote that line, he was thinking of the breakthrough of warp speed or just faster-than-light travel in general. But of course, later Trek episodes have made that impossible. So it was probably something like breaking Warp Seven or Eight.

Perhaps Vega would be better equipped, though?

Certainly possible. Since we don't really know how many crewmen were injured on Rigel or the extent of their injuries, it's wide open to speculation.

Anybody flying from "Rigel" to "Vega" is already spanning considerable distances anyway, assuming the Trek galaxy isn't labeled totally differently from ours. Why isn't Pike going to some facility that does not sit right next to Earth like Vega does? Indeed, why not go directly to Earth? Is Pike perhaps on a mission to go to Vega anyway, and the casualties are but a minor side issue there?

Again, possible. I try not to think too hard about the actual interstellar distances involved, though, since early TOS just tended to use familiar-sounding star names without really considering the distances between them. So we got a lot of Rigel, Vega, Orion, and what have you. I think trying to figure out the actual routes, speeds, or distances involved in the Enterprise's missions is a quick way to drive yourself crazy. Bellisario's Maxim: This should not be examined too closely.

 

[Marsden]

But since the Enterprise was headed to the Vega Colony to tend to their sick & injured instead of Starbase 11, SB11 likely wasn't built or open for business yet in 2254.

And then next episode, Kirk is trying to maroon @Gary Mitchell on @Delta Vega .

I guess Rodenberry liked Vega for space locations.

Maybe he drove a Vega. Nope, just checked they started in 1970.