Vic Fontaine - why, just why?

[PKTrekGirl]

You have a good point, the juxtaposition of the intense battle scenes with the mellow music was an interesting contast, even if I don't care for that particular style. I was really being kind of tongue-in-cheek about them playing metal, anyway. I'm not even a diehard metal fan or anything... though I must say, it's really good workout music!

Yeah...just think of it as them giving you a break in the heavy and often grim action of the war. That's what I look at it as...

They were just trying to put a little light fun into DS9 here and there was all. And when they where trying to achieve that, they often reached back into classic film and the personalities that came out of classic film. So you had Vic Fontaine doing the 'Sinatra Wise-Guy Musical' thing...and you had Bashir as a James Bond-ish type guy...and you had the Ferengi reaching back into 1950's scifi (Little Green Men) and The Magnificent Seven (The Magnificent Ferengi).

Truthfully, I think that the DS9 writers, when they needed to get away from writing heavy war episode after war episode and coordinating with each other on all manner of minutia regarding the Dominion War storyline, fell back quite frequently on classic film. I think they sat there and said, "Okay...you know guys...I really love Bond. And Bashir is, like tailor made for doing something with that. Let's do an over-the-top funny spin on Bond!" Or one of them probably really loved Sinatra and wanted to to a rat-packish storyline...and so Vic Fontaine...and eventually Badda Bing...was born. And NOTHING is more ridiculous than The Magnificent Ferengi...and especially so when viewed in the context of the movie that spawned it - The Magnificent Seven.

The DS9 writers actually spoofed a fair amount of classic film. Vic/Sinatra's Ratpack was only the tip of the iceberg.

And as a complete aside, I agree with you (although in my own way) about workout music. My running playlists have always been chock full of Pearl Jam, Springsteen, Queen, and some other bands that have reputations for 'high energy'.

Can't say as Sinatra is on any of my running play lists...although a couple of his albums are on my iPod.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I'm watching through the entirety of Deep Space Nine for the first time (currently in season seven - "Once More Unto the Breach" is my next episode), and I'm uncertain as to where I stand on Vic at the moment. With a show as character-oriented as DS9 is, I thought it was a bit odd that a seemingly "random" character who basically came out of nowhere was the one who helped Odo and Kira to finally come together. On the other hand, perhaps such an individual was the only one who could since he was removed from the situation, unlike the others onboard the situation. Based on where I am in the series, I've seen three of his appearances so far, and I'm looking forward to watching him help Nog post-"The Siege of AR-558." At the moment, though, I'm wondering why you'd introduce a new main character who is trained as a counselor, yet use a recurring character instead to help one of the other main characters with such large issues.

Because on DS9, we LOVE our recurring characters. We don't have just one token overriding villain, we have many (Dukat, Kai Winn, Weyoun, Female Changling, etc). We don't have one token goofy Ferengi...we have a whole flock of them (Quark, Rom, Nog, Moogie, Zek, "Brunt, FCA"). We don't just have one token 'bad guy turns good'..we have at least two (Garak...and one other one which I won't spoil you on since he 'turns' in S7. Although we might even have 3 if you count Enabrain Tain). We don't have just one token Klingon (and a reluctant one at that!) - we have a real life kick-ass GREAT Klingon in Martok. A full-on Klingon Without Angst! Who is on 'our side' and not just another Klingon who's sole purpose is to point out YET AGAIN (yawn!) how 'different' Worf is than other Klingons. He's his own character - not Worf's relief. And it's frakkin' AWESOME! We don't even have just one token 'kid in the show'. We have two - Jake and Nog, who become best friends despite their wildly different backgrounds and values.

I think that with some of the other Trek shows, you get into 'tokens'. Data = Seven of Nine = T'Pol = 'That Character Who is Trying to Discover Their Humanity'. But DS9 doesn't go down that road very much (thank goodness). They throw all kinds of nuts into the mix....because not everyone likes just almonds and peanuts. Some of us want a hazelnut once in a while. And so you have Garak - a recurring character who often wins Best Character in Show votes around here...despite the fact that he is hugely different from any character we see in the other Trek shows. He's good...but he's bad....he's sometimes good for the wrong reasons...and sometimes bad for the right ones. Now, how great is that? In a franchise that is so often framed in black and white...Garak is all ABOUT the gray. And that's exactly what makes him so brilliant.

As for Ezri...I think part of her 'development' was to show her inexperience as a counselor...and having characters go to others seems reasonable enough. Not everyone IRL goes to a shrink when they have a problem - especially a fairly new one right out of school who looks to be about age 15. Some just go down to the pub and talk to the bartender - thus you have Quark knowing EVERYTHING all the time about all manner of drama on the station...and you have Vic....who very soon on your schedule will have an entire episode to himself and another recurring character, Nog. Personally, I love that episode and found it very daring of them to go out on a limb and have two recurring characters carry an episode. But it was fun!

But bottom line - I love the recurring characters on DS9 and believe they make the show what it is. But with so many, there is bound to be overlap - with each other, and with 'main' characters on the show as well.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vic was a pretty polarizing character when the show was in its original run, wasn't he? Meaning fans either loved him or they hated him - there wasn't really any middle ground.

 

[RAMA]

I like Sinatra, granted I dont own the CDs or anything, but I can listen to and enjoy it when I hear the songs. Vic Fontaine is better used in small doses. I think he was overused, but there were also some very good moments with him in particular episodes.

RAMA

 

[PsychoPere]

But bottom line - I love the recurring characters on DS9 and believe they make the show what it is. But with so many, there is bound to be overlap - with each other, and with 'main' characters on the show as well.

I wasn't intending to criticize DS9's use of recurring characters. It is, after all, a large part of what makes this a great show. I used to rank TNG as my second favorite Trek, but that was pretty much just a default choice since VGR and ENT weren't worthy of a ranking that high. I'm not even finished yet, but DS9 is definitely now #2 for me.

I'm replying now because I just finished watching "It's Only a Paper Moon" a few minutes ago, and I am now solidly onboard with Vic Fontaine. I was skeptical going into this episode about using a holoprogram to help Nog through his PTSD, but I have to say that it was handled perfectly. I may have been unclear prior to this episode on my exact feelings regarding Vic, but now I do believe he belongs right up there with the other great DS9 recurring characters.

I'm still not entirely sold on his use in "His Way," though. I would've preferred Vic to have had some prior establishment before being used in a manner that would so profoundly affect two other characters.

You also raised an important point for me to consider with Ezri, and I think "It's Only a Paper Moon" helped clear up my initial skepticism / doubt as to why the counselor main character wouldn't be the one used to help another character in this sort of situation. She did help, by convincing the others that Vic and the holoprogram could be useful and by "staying out of the way." Also, as she herself pointed out in her first few appearances, she was going to be an assistant ship's counselor once she returned to Destiny, which I wasn't taking into consideration when I first expressed my doubts.

 

[Mr Pointy Ears]

Vic fontaine was one character that i didnt like,here they are in the 24 century and the crew asked and get advice from a hologram based on a guy from the 1960s,strange indeed.

 

[Amaris]

Vic fontaine was one character that i didnt like,here they are in the 24 century and the crew asked and get advice from a hologram based on a guy from the 1960s,strange indeed.

Not strange at all. Many stories have an oracle of some kind, a wise sage who transcends the immediate circumstances to pinpoint a clear path for a character.

 

[PorthosShadow]

I'm surprised by all the hate, I thought he added a touch of class to DS9 without over doing it. Plus, the songs were all pretty good so there was that.

 

[Supernuke]

I'm surprised by all the hate, I thought he added a touch of class to DS9 without over doing it. Plus, the songs were all pretty good so there was that.

I agree. Not even a fan of lounge music, but still found him enjoyable.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

I'm surprised by all the hate, I thought he added a touch of class to DS9 without over doing it. Plus, the songs were all pretty good so there was that.

But see, the whole thing is, I think they did overdo it. People hanging out at Vic's instead of Quark's, having Vic sing entire songs on camera (which made me feel the writers couldn't be bothered to write another interesting scene and so just threw a song in), and, lest we forget, that one episode that centered around the entire senior staff of DS9 (in the middle of a war) took time out to "help" Vic, a freakin' hologram - that was overdoing it in my book. I didn't like Vic to begin with, and by the time they had an entire episode centered around him, I felt like the show was shoving this guy down my throat.

I actually liked the fact that Sisko was not yet another Vic fan. He rightly felt the holodeck caper to "save" Vic's was ridiculous. But of course then he had to be converted by Kassidy and co. into yet another Vic-lover, ugh.

 

[Praxius]

I'm surprised by all the hate, I thought he added a touch of class to DS9 without over doing it. Plus, the songs were all pretty good so there was that.

But see, the whole thing is, I think they did overdo it. People hanging out at Vic's instead of Quark's, having Vic sing entire songs on camera (which made me feel the writers couldn't be bothered to write another interesting scene and so just threw a song in), and, lest we forget, that one episode that centered around the entire senior staff of DS9 (in the middle of a war) took time out to "help" Vic, a freakin' hologram - that was overdoing it in my book. I didn't like Vic to begin with, and by the time they had an entire episode centered around him, I felt like the show was shoving this guy down my throat.

I actually liked the fact that Sisko was not yet another Vic fan. He rightly felt the holodeck caper to "save" Vic's was ridiculous. But of course then he had to be converted by Kassidy and co. into yet another Vic-lover, ugh.

His hate had more to do with his hatred of the era where black people didn't have many freedoms and that Vic's gave a false impression of what life was like back then.

It wasn't until later he learned that it was more about how things should have been, not what they were.

And Vic was just as much of a individual as the Doctor was, or Data was..... and the fact that Vic helped out just about every one of the main characters and was now needing help of his own, I liked that the main characters weren't so uppity about him being just a hologram. And having one episode that didn't revolve around the Dominion War as a break wasn't a bad thing.

As for stealing some thunder from Quarks, I don't see it..... many things still happened in Quarks after Vic came along and I remember seeing Quarks in pretty well every episode, at least twice per episode.

Besides..... where in Quarks besides the Holosuits could the crew reserve an entire bar to just themselves?

If they had the final montage of the crew in Quarks, there would have been a pile more people roaming around and ruining the moment..... taking the focus off the main cast.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ Well, saying that Vic's 'stole' something from Quark's bar is like saying the holdeck on TNG 'stole' something from Ten Forward. I mean, why did they need the holodeck when they had Ten Forward to relax in?

Vic's was a Vegas nightclub, circa Earth, 1960's. Quark's was a bar (which is a different thing, lacking live entertainment) located in our crew's present reality. A reality, not at all incidentally, which pretty much sucked, being as how they were at the epicenter of an intergalactic war and all.

I don't know about you guys...but if I were living in the middle of an intergalactic war, which was talking place quite literally right outside my door, I'd welcome someplace to go that was more of an escape from that than was Quarks - a place where I would see no one except the people I was fighting that war with. A place where everyone would be preoccupied with one thing, and one thing only - survival. Quarks was a bar...but it was situated right smack in the middle of their reality - a reality so terrible that not even Quark's was a sufficient enough escape.

To escape a reality THAT terrible, you have to have something so far removed that it's not even in the same universe. Vic's was that place.

Or would we prefer to have stupid stories about Nottingham Forest or quaint little villages in Ireland?

GAH! I'll take Vegas, 1960's any day of the week!

 

[Zeppster]

A holodeck serves a purpose because it can take you anywhere. They basically made a holosuite into another bar. Which they already had one downstairs. It would be like someone saying I got a bar but it's not good enough so I'll take the property from the guy above and make a new bar. That's basically what they did.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

A holodeck serves a purpose because it can take you anywhere. They basically made a holosuite into another bar. Which they already had one downstairs. It would be like someone saying I got a bar but it's not good enough so I'll take the property from the guy above and make a new bar. That's basically what they did.

THANK YOU, that's it exactly! And who wants to hang out in a crappy cheesy 60's Vegas bar/lounge when you have the reality, fun, and intrigue of Quark's? Vic's was BORING!

 

[Supernuke]

A holodeck serves a purpose because it can take you anywhere. They basically made a holosuite into another bar. Which they already had one downstairs. It would be like someone saying I got a bar but it's not good enough so I'll take the property from the guy above and make a new bar. That's basically what they did.

THANK YOU, that's it exactly! And who wants to hang out in a crappy cheesy 60's Vegas bar/lounge when you have the reality, fun, and intrigue of Quark's? Vic's was BORING!

I would honestly rather hang out at Vic's than Quark's most of the time. I found Quark more annoying than Vic

 

[Zeppster]

A holodeck serves a purpose because it can take you anywhere. They basically made a holosuite into another bar. Which they already had one downstairs. It would be like someone saying I got a bar but it's not good enough so I'll take the property from the guy above and make a new bar. That's basically what they did.

THANK YOU, that's it exactly! And who wants to hang out in a crappy cheesy 60's Vegas bar/lounge when you have the reality, fun, and intrigue of Quark's? Vic's was BORING!

I agree and Vic's probably would have been okay if they used it once in a season if that. Kinda like other recurring characters were.

 

[Zeppster]

A holodeck serves a purpose because it can take you anywhere. They basically made a holosuite into another bar. Which they already had one downstairs. It would be like someone saying I got a bar but it's not good enough so I'll take the property from the guy above and make a new bar. That's basically what they did.

THANK YOU, that's it exactly! And who wants to hang out in a crappy cheesy 60's Vegas bar/lounge when you have the reality, fun, and intrigue of Quark's? Vic's was BORING!

I would honestly rather hang out at Vic's than Quark's most of the time. I found Quark more annoying than Vic

I can respect that. Some people will like that style. But it's subjective. Others will hate it or find it boring.

The perfect example was one of the Batman films in the 90s. I think it was the 3rd one that randomly had a Seal video in the middle of the film. I remember sitting the theatre thinking WTF? To me it just doesn't fit in Star Trek.

 

[Tulaberry whine]

Thinking about it, Vic also had the benefit of giving the producers a way to introduce new themes and a bit of texture into the music of DS9, which had up until that point largely consisted of horribly ineffective mood music that IMO really hurt the show.

 

[Saquist]

I'm watching through the entirety of Deep Space Nine for the first time (currently in season seven - "Once More Unto the Breach" is my next episode), and I'm uncertain as to where I stand on Vic at the moment. With a show as character-oriented as DS9 is, I thought it was a bit odd that a seemingly "random" character who basically came out of nowhere was the one who helped Odo and Kira to finally come together. On the other hand, perhaps such an individual was the only one who could since he was removed from the situation, unlike the others onboard the situation. Based on where I am in the series, I've seen three of his appearances so far, and I'm looking forward to watching him help Nog post-"The Siege of AR-558." At the moment, though, I'm wondering why you'd introduce a new main character who is trained as a counselor, yet use a recurring character instead to help one of the other main characters with such large issues.

Just like Voyagers, Leonardo De Vinci. The writers think these are good changes of paste but I think they really serve to take you out of the realism of the situation. Really these are usually filler episodes with Vic or just filler moments to eat up screen time.

 

[Praxius]

A holodeck serves a purpose because it can take you anywhere. They basically made a holosuite into another bar. Which they already had one downstairs. It would be like someone saying I got a bar but it's not good enough so I'll take the property from the guy above and make a new bar. That's basically what they did.

Nobody "Took" anything from Quark by making another bar in a holosuite because Quark owned the Holosuites, which means anybody using them has to pay Quark, so it's not like they're loop holing Quark out of his profits.

Whatever anybody did in Quark's Holosuites, be that some Orion Slave girl experience, fighting at the Alamo, role playing as a spy or visiting an advanced hologram in his own bar in the 1960's...... Quark still gets the business and the profits and whatever anybody does in his Holosuites isn't really anybody else's business.