Vertical Intermix Chamber and TMP Enterprise

[Santaman]

I assume they have various pumps and stuff for fuel and the like, also to get plasma where they need it and so on.

One little thing about the TMP Refit: The impulse drive has the about the same "glass" covering as the nacelles have, how does the "impulse drive is a relativistic drive" team explain that since it makes it pretty imposible to exhaust anything from them?
Is this one more point to go to the "impulse engines are pure coil drives" team?

I hope these links work, they show off what I mean.

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/STMPent66.jpg

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/STMPent16.jpg

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/STMPent27.jpg

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Well I always assumed the bits an the nacelles to be exhaust slats.

I mean - that hot charged plasma isn't just gonna disappear, is it?

What did you think the GNDN tubes were for? The ship must have relied on fluid flows just as heavily as any ship of today does... Although probably not for lubrication of moving parts. Did Kirk's ship ever demonstrate moving parts? Apart from the shuttlebay doors, that is.

Timo Saloniemi

They just spray some WD-40 on the hangar door track.

 

[Timo]

I'm not sure why the exhaust holes of an impulse engine should be macroscopic. The business end of the engine could look like solid glass even up close, but might still be designed for letting drive plasma through.

Indeed, in TOS "Obsession" we learn that leaving open an inspection vent in the impulse engines makes it possible for a gaseous creature to enter - yet obviously doesn't cause the air to rush out. We might be speaking of a semipermeable wall of some sort, then, one that lets out protons but not oxygen molecules, and lets in a sufficiently determined cloud of gas either when said gas transmutes itself to hydrogen or when said gas exerts sufficient pressure against the wall.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Santaman]

I assume that if you want a large quantity of very hot gasses to come out of an engine at a sufficient rate you're not going to block off the exhaust with something.
However a transparant ceramic/metallic compound would be very good at radiating heat I assume.

As for the warp drive, isn't it considered rather bad to vent drive plasma? In most cases they're not too fond of that happening as far as I remember.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

As for the warp drive, isn't it considered rather bad to vent drive plasma? In most cases they're not too fond of that happening as far as I remember.

Still, that matter has to go somewhere - unless it's going to magically disappear into subspace.

 

[RyanKCR]

As for the warp drive, isn't it considered rather bad to vent drive plasma? In most cases they're not too fond of that happening as far as I remember.

Still, that matter has to go somewhere - unless it's going to magically disappear into subspace.

Isn't it converted to energy? Wasn't that the point of using matter-antimatter?

 

[Timo]

Why should that matter go anywhere? It's not necessarily being produced, either. It's probably just a power transfer medium: annihilation of deuterium and antideuterium shouldn't produce plasma, but should merely release energy in the form of gamma rays, neutrinos and a few short-lived exotics.

I'd see "warp plasma" as a relatively static medium that fills the "power train" of the starship but isn't being created or destroyed. Matter and antimatter flow into the reaction chamber and produce energy; dilithium somehow focuses this energy into a very specific form that the warp coils are fond of; warp plasma transmits this energy to places, including warp coils; and the energy depletes itself in the process of energizing the coils so that the coils produce a subspace field.

The "very special energy" that travels in the plasma could still be EM in nature, mind you. But it could also be something completely different, something that travels best in plasma and is only created when shiploads of raw energy hit a dilithium crystal. Or when something exotic happens around an artificial quantum singularity. Or by a couple of other methods that cultures more alien than the Feds or the Romulans make use of.

This energy obviously cannot be stored for long. But one might deduce a lot about the nature of the energy by analyzing the plasma medium in which it travels - which would explain how a small bottle of warp plasma in VOY "Fair Trade" was a coveted prize. It would be a bit like getting a bottle of Siberian river water: helps a lot in understanding what sort of fission explosions are taking place in the Soviet Union... One could no doubt divine all sorts of things from the water in a submarine's PWR primary circuit, too, which would be an even better analogy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Plecostomus]

Why should that matter go anywhere? It's not necessarily being produced, either. It's probably just a power transfer medium: annihilation of deuterium and antideuterium shouldn't produce plasma, but should merely release energy in the form of gamma rays, neutrinos and a few short-lived exotics.

I'd see "warp plasma" as a relatively static medium that fills the "power train" of the starship but isn't being created or destroyed. Matter and antimatter flow into the reaction chamber and produce energy; dilithium somehow focuses this energy into a very specific form that the warp coils are fond of; warp plasma transmits this energy to places, including warp coils; and the energy depletes itself in the process of energizing the coils so that the coils produce a subspace field.

The "very special energy" that travels in the plasma could still be EM in nature, mind you. But it could also be something completely different, something that travels best in plasma and is only created when shiploads of raw energy hit a dilithium crystal. Or when something exotic happens around an artificial quantum singularity. Or by a couple of other methods that cultures more alien than the Feds or the Romulans make use of.

This energy obviously cannot be stored for long. But one might deduce a lot about the nature of the energy by analyzing the plasma medium in which it travels - which would explain how a small bottle of warp plasma in VOY "Fair Trade" was a coveted prize. It would be a bit like getting a bottle of Siberian river water: helps a lot in understanding what sort of fission explosions are taking place in the Soviet Union... One could no doubt divine all sorts of things from the water in a submarine's PWR primary circuit, too, which would be an even better analogy.

Timo Saloniemi

Whatever it is, "we're venting drive plasma" seems to be a OMFG-class emergency on a Galaxy-class starship, which leads to loss of vehicle if not corrected.

Or maybe it's the loss of system pressure that causes the core to fail. Reaction takes place under many many MANY times atmospheric pressure to compress it, and the sudden uncontrolled expansion of that much plasma and energy leads to "catastrophic vessel failure" and loss of vehicle.

That said, the injection of plasma into the nacelles is just a side-effect as you will... the "exotic something" jumps out of the injector in the brief period it's opened, and the plasma lost has to be replenished.

I see that as either a continuous process by running the warp-core "rich" so that "real fusion" takes place in some region of the pressure vessel and the matter-antimatter reaction taking place at the crystal.


All sorts of interesting things to ponder.

 

[Saquist]

Stay on the subject for a minute, will you? There is no canon evidence that, in the trekiverse, relativistic time dilation occurs at sub-light speeds. Quite the opposite, in fact, we have seen starships moving around at high sublight speeds all the time without experiencing any noticeable time dilation or simultaneity anomalies. Therefore, relativistic time dilation is not canon in Star Trek.

This is classic avoidance, new type alpha.
Look at what you propose.
That "relativistic isn't canon in a science fiction show."-Then it's fantasy.
Then there is no need for a field propulsion in which case the Warp Drive isn't necessary. But as you can see Cochrane is credited for breaking the light speed barrier. Your argument is one fallacy of logic after another.

Star Trek is propperly called SCIENCE FICTION.
SCIENCE FICTION is defined as...

Science fiction is a genre of fiction. It differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically-established or scientifically-postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation).

General Relativity is very much so established.
Your argument is contrary to common sense.

You have it backwards again. You need POSITIVE evidence that time dilation occurs in Star Trek (i.e. an example of it happening) before you can claim it is canon. What you have done instead is assert that there's no evidence that it doesn't occur, which I'm sure you know is flawed logic.

That is wholely incorrect.
I never said or asserted, "there is no evidence that it doesn't occur." That is your Fifth Strawman so far. If you know that's flawed logic then why have you used such reasoning to call your Rocket theory more sound?

What I did say is that the very mention of a LIGHTSPEED is a reference to Relativity it'self which is a halmark of Einsteinian physics. You've yet to disprove this, new alpha.

And your objection is a form of special pleading. MANY things on the Enterprise show no use of forcefields for anything, even though we know the forcefields are there. A forcefield thrust-reverser is a perfectly plausible explanation, and it has the virtue of being more consistent with the TNG tech manual as well as Scotty's line from "Relics" than reducing impulse engines to some other type of exotic field propulsion system.

There is no pleading.
There is no evidence of a forcefield reverse thrust any where in canon.
It's pure speculation that doesn't rely on anything in canon. You relying on the nondomenstration to push this idea while ignoring the relativistic problem.

And to shift the goalposts right back to their original position... so what? The existence of it would provide EXACTLY the effect we see from impulse engines. The theory remains plausible.

That would only be true if the device could somehow over come relativistic issues at fractions of the speed of light.

Do I again have to go down the list of all the cases where this is untrue? Or would it be more efficient to go down the extremely short list of forcefields that ARE visible when disturbed?

How would that help your argument?
You still wouldn't get most unless you based the list almost entirely off TOS.

You did not even provide me of a list of examples of forcefields that WERE visible. How could you possibly believe this is an established fact?

The record speaks for it'self.
Such a list would be a complete waste of time. You may proceed if you like.

TNG was far from "conclude" when the tech manual was written. It was published in 1991 based on the Writer's guide; the series did not conclude until 1994.

My error. I though it was 1992.
Nevertheless by this point the Enterprise had already had 3 or 4 seasons and least one established example of the Enterprise using impulse power in reverse as well as another example in ST:III a trend that has never been broken since.

Riiiiigt... Mike Okuda and Rick Sternback were merely speculating on how the Enterprise--which they themselves designed--supposedly worked.

I'm glad you agree.
We've already established that Gene Roddenberry is the ultimate source so all they can do is speculate or add there ideas to canon for legitamacy. (Which they didn't do) so yeah that's speculation. Just like Mike Okuda and Berman speculated on the Registry they worked out and even use in canon. They didn't work that out specificly and precisely nor did Sternbach and Mike really work out how impulse engines work according to canon.

And personally I think there is far more proof for how the registry works than for how impulse engines work.

No argument can ever be validated by opposing information, as an attempt to prove a negative is fundamentally illogical. The positive datapoints I have presented lend credence to this theory and is more consistent with them than any other possibilities. And of course, the single most relevant datapoint is design intent.

Of course an arguement can be validated by opposing information if your whole arguement was to contradict my argument. You produced no positive information...NO ADDITIONAL information. You made confidence statements and I'm sorry that's just not admissiable for the standards of proof.

Then go away.

And why would I be inclined to grant such a request over the previous?
Excercise your own discretion as you see fit. Nothing is holding you here but ego. You've not apologized for one mistake you've made so either you are flawless or you would prefer to gloss over profound lapses in judgement with a dismissal.

 

[Vance]

Well I always assumed the bits an the nacelles to be exhaust slats.

I mean - that hot charged plasma isn't just gonna disappear, is it?

True, but exhaust venting doesn't neccessarily imply thrust any more than your muffler pushes your car along. I mean, it could, but...

 

[USS Jack Riley]

I'm still not a fan of the organic web shooters. Takes away too much of Peter's backstory, namely that the kid's a scientific whiz. Also makes it a lot harder to pull the old gag of running out of web fluid in a critical time.

Not to mention where a spider REALLY shoots its webs from. Can you imagine trying to pull that off on the big sreen?

 

[Saquist]

Well I always assumed the bits an the nacelles to be exhaust slats.

I mean - that hot charged plasma isn't just gonna disappear, is it?

True, but exhaust venting doesn't neccessarily imply thrust any more than your muffler pushes your car along. I mean, it could, but...

Warp engines do put out warp trails but nothing like we've seen them vent when there is a rupture to the nacelle. The plasma must be recycled.

 

[Timo]

Hell, we don't even know if the plasma moves at all. Perhaps it's a stationary medium through which energy flows are passing from the reactor to the warp coils?

Sure, we hear of a "plasma stream" once or twice, but that could be inexact terminology to describe a situation where something is streaming through plasma...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Robert April]

^This is the first time I've heard a reasonable explanation for Voyager's apparent cluenessness regarding how the warp drive works. Maybe they were actually onto something regarding "warp plasma".

Maybe I'll send Braga a little gift over on Facebook to make up for this bit of overaggressiveness on my part...

 

[TheWifeOfBrian]

*delete me*

 

[Plecostomus]

*delete me*

She forgot to log off before handing the computer back to me.

Anyway!

I came up with this awhile back based on the fact that we've seen two serious incidents on TNG in which venting from the nacelles or the potential for venting triggered catastrophic emergency procedures.

Once in Cause And Effect, and once in that episode where Troi almost jumped into the nacelle.

 

[Timo]

Either that, or then venting of plasma is the first, automated step in defusing a potentially catastrophic situation.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Santaman]

^^ I assume thats a tricky one,. maybe if you vent it too quickly then the core will melt through your hull and do a big Kboomm because there's no plasma around enough to get rid of its energy but if you have a runaway M/AM reactor then you don't want it too blast a huge amount of energy into the drive plasma system because that will also make things go Kboom or melt right through your hull, they're quite a handfull those M/AM reactors aren't they?

 

[Cary L. Brown]

^^ I assume thats a tricky one,. maybe if you vent it too quickly then the core will melt through your hull and do a big Kboomm because there's no plasma around enough to get rid of its energy but if you have a runaway M/AM reactor then you don't want it too blast a huge amount of energy into the drive plasma system because that will also make things go Kboom or melt right through your hull, they're quite a handfull those M/AM reactors aren't they?

This is not nearly as complicated as it probably seems...

Think of a "steam-powered" system. Yes, the Enterprise isn't steam-powered, so please, don't anyone try to misquote me as saying so (I hate to have to say that, but there are folks on here who'll seize onto any opportunity to do so, we've all seen it!).

In this case, let's pretend that the "plasma" is merely a conductor. An ionized, pressurized plasma would certainly be effective for that purpose.

Plasma... which is, remember, the fourth phase of matter (solid, liquid, gaseous, plasma... plasma varying from gas solely by virtue of the electrons having been stripped from the nuclei)... will not necessarily follow the Ideal gas law (PV=nRT) perfectly, but is still going to follow the "general form" of of the law... that is, increase temperature, and you either increase volume or increase pressure (The difference between this and the classical version of the Ideal gas law is due to the "semi-metallic" characteristics of plasma due to the free electrons providing additional attraction... whereas gas exists as uncharged atoms or molecules.)


Okay, so say you have a runaway reactor outputing more energy into the "plasma" conductor (or whatever other purpose you envision for plasma). That plasma is confined to a given volume... the insides of the containing conduits and pipelines and chambers and so forth. With "V" being constant, and T increasing... you have a direct, proportional rise in pressure under the Ideal gas law.

Surely the ship's systems are tough, and designed to handle quite a bit of pressure, but get it hot enough and the pressure will risk rupturing the system.

How do you prevent that from happening?

Well, you either decrease "T" (which is normally not an option in the "Trekkian" situations we're talking about, being shot at by bad guys in full-on combat), or increase "V" (and how do you increase the volume of a fixed system? Short answer... you don't)... or you decrease "n" (the amount of material... not really in the form of "mass" here but proportional to mass).

How do you reduce the mass of "plasma" in the system? Simple... you "vent it to space."

This means you need to have a backup supply of this material, to "repressurize" that system once the temperature has returned to the normal range, of course... depending on whether this plasma is simple ionized hydrogen (the cheapest solution, and easily replenished) or something much more specialized (in which case, you'll need a supply of "replacement fluid" cannisters among your ship's stores), you'll still have to reintroduce mass later to get back to optimal operational conditions.

"Venting" is one of those things that really does make sense in the situations where we've seen it, given what we know.

 

[Saquist]

I think the new ship by abrams is steam powered....