Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

[David Mack]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up

^ No. At this point, she's been reliving and refighting that battle in her mind for 53 years. My take on it is that as she and Sten continue to psionically assault each other, the details of the original fight have long since been forgotten and become irrelevant. It has become a self-sustaining conflict that exists for its own sake.

Consequently, I and Dayton & Kevin don't need to worry about matching any specific details in T'Prynn's mental battles, because they are subject to constant change.

 

[captcalhoun]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up

ah, fair enough. it just seemed to me that a lot of the disparate bits matched up, so i thought may be you had...

 

[Sec31Mike]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up

I just finished RTW last night, and I'd like to say that it was AWESOME.

Excellent tie-ins to the ST2-4 movie arc - it is totally believable that the Genesis Wave is based off of Shedai technology.

Can't wait to see where it goes from there.

 

[David Mack]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up

Thanks, Mike. Glad to hear you enjoyed it.

 

[Sec31Mike]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up

BTW David,

Just want to give a belated compliment on the Archer class ship. Small, sleek, and sneaky. Is there anywhere I can get a pic of the ship without the warp nacelle on fire?

 

[David Mack]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up

The look of the ship is all thanks to Masao Okazaki, who designed it, and Doug Drexler, who did the CGI rendering of it for the cover. I know of no other CGI renders of it other than the cover of Reap the Whirlwind, but Jeff Ayers's site, Voyages of Imagination, published PDF files of the exterior designs of the Sagittarius a while back. (Click here and scroll down until you get to the Vanguard news item below the halfway mark.)

 

[Timo]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up

I know "Harbinger" isn't involved in weather phenomena, but you still have to admit that two out of three is going to be a fairly strong influence on how people think of the titles.

Three out of four, actually. "Dew" is a weather phenomenon, too!

Finally got my copy of the book. Took me three days to gulp it down. And one more day to work the euphoria out of my system.

Things that surprised me (but perhaps shouldn't, had I had the energy to read the previous books again):

-Klingons have up to four cruisers in the scene, Tholians have an entire armada, and Starfleet still drags its feet bringing in a replacement for the Bombay...

-The Lovell has a torpedo tube!

-The fun Powell/Donovan pair (Anderson and O'Somebody? I already forget) are Ensigns rather than enlisteds. Are these pre-established characters?

-Xiong gets sort of sidelined from the main action. Would his direct involvement have resolved some plot points too early?

-The Colonists Who Won't Budge, And Think The Boy Who Cries Wolf Is Kidding The First Time Around Already. Do these folks always have to be so suicidal, dismantling their ships before finding out whether the planet really is habitable? Shouldn't they wait for at least a year or so to see if the crops really grow?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Rosalind]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up

Timo said:
-Klingons have up to four cruisers in the scene, Tholians have an entire armada, and Starfleet still drags its feet bringing in a replacement for the Bombay...

bureaucracy, that's going to be the downfall of the Federation, mark my word.

 

[David Mack]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

Timo said:
Three out of four, actually. "Dew" is a weather phenomenon, too!

Only if you use it as an acronym. Distant Early Warning has its provenance in a missile-defense system, and as the title of a song by Rush.

-Klingons have up to four cruisers in the scene, Tholians have an entire armada, and Starfleet still drags its feet bringing in a replacement for the Bombay...

The Klingons and the Tholians are both societies that have invested heavily in their military. The Federation, meanwhile, has its resources stretched thin across a vast territory, and it's playing a game of catch-up in the arms and exploration race. But what Starfleet lacks in numbers it compensates for with technological sophistication and training.

-The Lovell has a torpedo tube!

Did anyone ever definitively say that it didn't? If not, call it a revelation. If so, call it a recent upgrade. (Or, retroactively with future continuity, a system that broke down.)

-The fun Powell/Donovan pair (Anderson and O'Somebody? I already forget) are Ensigns rather than enlisteds. Are these pre-established characters?

O'Halloran and Anderson. Yes, they were name-dropped in one of Ward-Dilmore's 23rd-century SCE stories as members of the Lovell's crew.

-Xiong gets sort of sidelined from the main action. Would his direct involvement have resolved some plot points too early?

No. Re-read his sections. He makes a massive discovery --- one that will change the future of the Federation. If you think his part of the story seemed irrelevant or sidelined, you weren't paying attention.

-The Colonists Who Won't Budge, And Think The Boy Who Cries Wolf Is Kidding The First Time Around Already. Do these folks always have to be so suicidal, dismantling their ships before finding out whether the planet really is habitable? Shouldn't they wait for at least a year or so to see if the crops really grow?

Their ships weren't dismantled, they were parked. And the danger to their colony had nothing to do with its viability, and everything to do with mounting political tensions between the Federation and the Klingon Empire.

And, of course, the Shedai.

 

[LightningStorm]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

David Mack said:

Timo said:
Three out of four, actually. "Dew" is a weather phenomenon, too!

Only if you use it as an acronym. Distant Early Warning has its provenance in a missile-defense system, and as the title of a song by Rush.

But with enough reaching, one could look at Meteorologist as our Distant Early Warning system for inclement weather.

 

[David Mack]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

(shakes head, takes ball, goes home)

 

[Sec31Mike]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

Thanks David,

The pics on the site you referred me to were just what I was looking for.

 

[Timo]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

No. Re-read his sections. He makes a massive discovery --- one that will change the future of the Federation. If you think his part of the story seemed irrelevant or sidelined, you weren't paying attention.

Ah, I didn't mean to imply that Xiong was irrelevant in general... I just felt that, after his big discovery linking the Tholians to the Shedai, he got separated from the rest of the Sagittarius crew for an extended period of time and ceased to contribute to the plot. Which was a bit curious in the sense that Xiong seemed to interact well with the Sagittarians, and this wasn't milked further...

Their ships weren't dismantled, they were parked.

Then why weren't there enough ships for everybody? (Or had the colonists been hauled in in three or more waves, with the same ships going back and forth?)

And the danger to their colony had nothing to do with its viability

But viability should be a prime concern for all colonists, lest the fate of Tarsus IV befall on them: there should be assured self-sufficiency or assured bail-out, and perhaps preferably both.

Granted, these people might refuse to think of bail-out if their hatred of the central government was great enough. But they didn't sound like a religiously persecuted lot, or otherwise distressed, nor should their fate be similar to that of technologically primitive New World colonists from the 16th or 17th centuries.

Or perhaps it should. I've got nothing against well-founded use of seeming anachronisms in scifi...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[David Mack]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

Timo said:
Ah, I didn't mean to imply that Xiong was irrelevant in general... I just felt that, after his big discovery linking the Tholians to the Shedai, he got separated from the rest of the Sagittarius crew for an extended period of time and ceased to contribute to the plot. Which was a bit curious in the sense that Xiong seemed to interact well with the Sagittarians, and this wasn't milked further...

I put him where the story needed him to be.

Their ships weren't dismantled, they were parked.

Then why weren't there enough ships for everybody? (Or had the colonists been hauled in in three or more waves, with the same ships going back and forth?)

Precisely. Note that the most recent arrivals came with the new president, Jeanne Vinueza. The idea is that the big colony ships, like the Terra Courser, haul your people and gear to the planet, and you ferry planetside. Some of the settlers have private ships, but most don't.

So, when it comes time for a mass evacuation, if there's not enough warning, there's going to be a shortage of seats. If something catastrophic happened right now in New York City, it would be the same problem. There are lots more people than the transit system can support: not enough cars, planes, trains, etc. It's not always feasible to keep that many transport options on hand all the time.

And the danger to their colony had nothing to do with its viability

But viability should be a prime concern for all colonists, lest the fate of Tarsus IV befall on them: there should be assured self-sufficiency or assured bail-out, and perhaps preferably both.

Again, nice in theory, but not always practical.

Granted, these people might refuse to think of bail-out if their hatred of the central government was great enough. But they didn't sound like a religiously persecuted lot, or otherwise distressed, nor should their fate be similar to that of technologically primitive New World colonists from the 16th or 17th centuries.

Or perhaps it should. I've got nothing against well-founded use of seeming anachronisms in scifi...

I saw the GT4 colony as something akin to a bunch of radical Libertarians who were convinced that government was the problem. What they learned the hard way is that it's not government that's the problem, it's incompetent government that's the problem.

 

[Sci]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

Timo said:
But viability should be a prime concern for all colonists, lest the fate of Tarsus IV befall on them: there should be assured self-sufficiency or assured bail-out, and perhaps preferably both.

Right, because everyone knows that major political decisions are always made out of a sense of logic and reason and not at all for irrational political concerns!

Granted, these people might refuse to think of bail-out if their hatred of the central government was great enough. But they didn't sound like a religiously persecuted lot, or otherwise distressed, nor should their fate be similar to that of technologically primitive New World colonists from the 16th or 17th centuries.

Just like Starfleet's decision to keep the threat of the Shedai hidden from the colonists was completely rational and not the least bit borne out of national security paranoia and anti-Kingon jingoism.

 

[Timo]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

Granted that the military has a license to be irrational whenever it pleases (which is most of the time). But making a colony unevacuable during the first year is akin to going to the airlock in a spacesuit that lacks the helmet and both gloves. Perfectly possible, I mean, but there ought to be a law against it, one enforceable by any concerned citizen...

A colony that has been through one year as a "test run" can well decide to become unevacuable. A colony that hasn't even checked out if the crops take before giving up on bail-out is idiot plot, plain and simple. Not that it would be a particularly rare type of idiot plot in Trek novels, or elsewhere in scifi.

17th century England may have sent colonists to die in scores. 17th century people may have fled England to die in scores, this being preferable to the alternative. Yet how this fits even the most delusional "libertarian" interpretation of the UFP remains a mystery to me. Refusing Starfleet protection is politics; refusing to wear the spacesuit helmet or have the evacuation ships standing by is deliberate suicide.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

Timo said:
Granted that the military has a license to be irrational whenever it pleases (which is most of the time). But making a colony unevacuable during the first year is akin to going to the airlock in a spacesuit that lacks the helmet and both gloves. Perfectly possible, I mean, but there ought to be a law against it, one enforceable by any concerned citizen...

A colony that has been through one year as a "test run" can well decide to become unevacuable. A colony that hasn't even checked out if the crops take before giving up on bail-out is idiot plot, plain and simple. Not that it would be a particularly rare type of idiot plot in Trek novels, or elsewhere in scifi.

17th century England may have sent colonists to die in scores. 17th century people may have fled England to die in scores, this being preferable to the alternative. Yet how this fits even the most delusional "libertarian" interpretation of the UFP remains a mystery to me. Refusing Starfleet protection is politics; refusing to wear the spacesuit helmet or have the evacuation ships standing by is deliberate suicide.

Timo Saloniemi

So's building a giantic luxury liner that doesn't have enough lifeboats if the ship hits an iceberg and sinks.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

Timo said:
Granted that the military has a license to be irrational whenever it pleases (which is most of the time). But making a colony unevacuable during the first year is akin to going to the airlock in a spacesuit that lacks the helmet and both gloves. Perfectly possible, I mean, but there ought to be a law against it, one enforceable by any concerned citizen...

Isn't this a bit of a non sequitur? What does the military have to do with it? Starfleet didn't set up the colony. The colonists did. Starfleet was just helping them out (and secretly investigating something else on the planet). And we saw clearly that the colony organizers and settlers were not inclined to accept the common-sense advice and protection that Starfleet and the Federation were offering them.

It's got nothing to do with the Federation's libertarianism, as you put it. The libertarians were the colonists, the ones who rejected Federation oversight. They were determined to prove they could make it on their own, and presumably that meant toughing it out rather than running away at the first sign of trouble.

Besides, it wasn't as if the colonists would've been unable to evacuate in any situation. It took them, what, three trips to settle there, so if there had been, say, a crop failure or something, they could've evacuated in three trips. It was only a sudden, widespread disaster or invasion that they were unable to cope with. So saying that they were foolishly unprepared for a crop failure is inaccurate. They could've coped with the kinds of crises a fledgling colony was likely to face. It was only the more extreme situations that caught them off guard.

By analogy, as Dave said, you couldn't evacuate all of Manhattan in one trip if you had to, but that doesn't mean Manhattan is unprepared for any emergency. Because it's only the most extreme possible emergencies that would require such a thing, and those are very unlikely.

 

[David Mack]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

Timo said:
A colony that has been through one year as a "test run" can well decide to become unevacuable. A colony that hasn't even checked out if the crops take before giving up on bail-out is idiot plot, plain and simple. Not that it would be a particularly rare type of idiot plot in Trek novels, or elsewhere in scifi.

Timo, I'm going to be calm here and try not to take umbrage at your use of the phrase "idiot plot," and instead I will simply offer you this morsel of an idea.

If the agricultural aspect of the colony had appeared to be failing, it's not exactly a situation that demands an immediate 60-minute evacuation. That's a scenario in which, over the course of several months, the leadership says, "You know, this isn't working. Let's call the transports and say adios to this lousy rock." ... A subspace message is sent. A few weeks later the big ships come and the colony is dismantled in an orderly fashion. The colonists return to various way stations, or to the core worlds, etc.

You wouldn't put a colony on a planet that you thought was orbiting a star on the verge of a supernova. You wouldn't put down roots on a geologically unstable sphere. So why the hell would you ever assume that a 60-minute (or, hell, even a 24-hour) emergency evacuation would be necessary? The whole point of settling on a planet is to avoid that insane scenario, which is no doubt common on ships and starbases, which do have such evac strategies.

And since the GT4 colonists apparently were ready to stand their ground, however foolishly, against the Klingons, they wouldn't consider the threat of a Klingon presence or even an invasion to be a reason to blight their landscape or their orbit with large transport ships, which they probably don't even own but just chartered, and which have other people to carry to other places so as to make a living.

It was a farming colony, not a M*A*S*H unit. Deal with it.

 

[nickyboy]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

I bought a copy of this book the other week for my flight, read about 20 pages, but ended up chatting to the person next to me. I left the book on the plane shoved down the pocket on the seat.

suppose the person sitting there next got a nice present!