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Vaadwaur

But those "better ideas" got complaints too:

1) The idea of "Borg Space" was ridiculed because the audience thought the idea of the Borg having any kind of territory at all was dumb. Nevermind that this idea originated in TNG and VOY was just following what they had established as the Borg background.

2) The 8472 were disliked because they could fight the Borg.

3) Unimatrix Zero was disliked because it again showed that the Borg weren't supreme Trek race No.1 and that their Hive Mind wasn't absolutely infallible (even though TNG showed this first), that there could be renegade Borg (TNG did this too), etc.

The only "good" idea VOY had, according to the audience, was "Year of Hell" where the ship was destroyed and nearly the whole crew was killed because they wanted everyone to die and the ship to be wrecked.
 
Complaints by who? You!? :lol:

I liked all those ideas 1, 2 & 3. 'Year Of Hell' not so much. People know they aren't gonna leave VOY a wreck and all those people dead. I didn't hate 'Year Of Hell' but it wasn't close to being one of my favorites. :shrug:
 
But those "better ideas" got complaints too:

1) The idea of "Borg Space" was ridiculed because the audience thought the idea of the Borg having any kind of territory at all was dumb. Nevermind that this idea originated in TNG and VOY was just following what they had established as the Borg background.
I liked the concept of Borg having their own claimed space (it makes sense. Lots of sense.) so I had no problem with it. I have a problem with them only being in "Borg Space" for one episode before finally getting Kes'd the hell out of there. What a wasted opportunity. It'd be like if the Dominion showed up one day on DS9, the Defiant fires some quantum torpedoes into the wormhole, and then we move on to the next "Quark plays Tongo" episode. Booooooom, reset.

2) The 8472 were disliked because they could fight the Borg.
That's not what I said in the other thread, at all. What I disliked was the 8742 was shown to be massively more powerful than the Borg, then this little ol' Intrepid-class starship shows up one day, comes up with the bright idea to put nanoprobes in a torpedo, fire it into a fissure in space, and suddenly the previously super-duper powerful species is rendered incapacitated. Say, this sounds a lot like what I just said DS9 DIDN'T do. Booooooom, reset.

3) Unimatrix Zero was disliked because it again showed that the Borg weren't supreme Trek race No.1 and that their Hive Mind wasn't absolutely infallible (even though TNG showed this first), that there could be renegade Borg (TNG did this too), etc.
As you point out, we already knew this from TNG. But again, here's where Voyager takes a great idea and shelves it. Booooooom, reset.

Endgame would have been a billion times better if they built on the internal civil war that the Borg were going to have, showed Unimatrix Zero-liberated drones taking down the Hive from the inside, and then leading Voyager on a merry chase through transwarp conduits until they get back to Earth. We already knew that there were thousands of Borg being liberated, and it would have been great story-telling if the only enemy that could defeat the Borg was THE BORG themselves. INSTEAD, they chose to rely on the "time-tested" audience ratings boost of TIME TRAVEL.

The only "good" idea VOY had, according to the audience, was "Year of Hell" where the ship was destroyed and nearly the whole crew was killed because they wanted everyone to die and the ship to be wrecked.
Year of Hell would have worked a lot better as a Voyager movie. Except for the Booooooom, reset at the end.
 
But those "better ideas" got complaints too:

1) The idea of "Borg Space" was ridiculed because the audience thought the idea of the Borg having any kind of territory at all was dumb. Nevermind that this idea originated in TNG and VOY was just following what they had established as the Borg background.

2) The 8472 were disliked because they could fight the Borg.

3) Unimatrix Zero was disliked because it again showed that the Borg weren't supreme Trek race No.1 and that their Hive Mind wasn't absolutely infallible (even though TNG showed this first), that there could be renegade Borg (TNG did this too), etc.

The only "good" idea VOY had, according to the audience, was "Year of Hell" where the ship was destroyed and nearly the whole crew was killed because they wanted everyone to die and the ship to be wrecked.

Still, you generalize ridiculously. I've never heard of the complaint you just listed about Borg space. Probably the biggest problem with it is that having Voyager take on the entire collective by itself stretches believability, but that's a problem only in how it would be theoretically executed. That kind of thing did happen anyway, but that's another discussion.

I loved Species 8472 and had no problem whatsoever with them being able to fight the Borg. If anyone has that problem, you can tell them I think they're stupid because the Borg were never supposed to be the end-all force in the galaxy. The whole idea of the 8472 conflict with the Borg to me, was an opportunity to give Voyager the ability to find ways to fight the Borg in a believable way. But that really didn't get explored beyond one episode, and then what happened to 8472? They turned into some Body Snatcher-like would be invasion force of the Federation? :wtf: Didn't we already have the Changelings?

Unimatrix Zero was a dumb idea, as was the Borg Queen, but even I liked a few aspects of it.
 
Their re-appearance in "Flesh and Blood" stretched credibility, though.
I liked the concept that Flesh and Blood re-introduced of the holgrams fighting the Hirogen, but not the execution. If if I were a writer I would not have gone the direction they did with the story. The Holograms should NOT have been self-aware, and frankly the stories dealing with The Doctor's humanity were very weak to me.
Too each his own but I loved the EMH's story arch.
I loved the irony of giving what flesh & blood beings saw as a "hollow" gram depth by giving him awareness of character.

The Hirogen were awesome.
I just wish Trek was graphic enough to show them eating somebody.:lol::lol:
 
I don't hear many complaints about that.
Not many but they do exist For every "I loved that..." there are always some that "Hated that..."

Please stop generalizing about how much you think everybody has it in for Voyager.
Honestly, I don't think he is.
Anwar and I have been members here for a veeeery long time. Posters used to liken Rick Berman to Hitler and trash Voyager for any reason they could think of. There were folks here mad a Berman because he didn't write stores of Janeway getting raped. Posters would avoid the Voyager forum because it was that hostile in here. I think allot of the opinions Anwar has are from comments made by haters back in the day.
 
I liked the concept of Borg having their own claimed space (it makes sense. Lots of sense.) so I had no problem with it. I have a problem with them only being in "Borg Space" for one episode before finally getting Kes'd the hell out of there. What a wasted opportunity. It'd be like if the Dominion showed up one day on DS9, the Defiant fires some quantum torpedoes into the wormhole, and then we move on to the next "Quark plays Tongo" episode. Booooooom, reset.

Give Voyager a Federation to protect, and a lot of powerful allies to call upon and you have something. One weakling scout ship that a kick in the shins would blow up? Not much of a plot there, especially with an overpowered foe like the Borg surrounding them constantly.

That's not what I said in the other thread, at all. What I disliked was the 8742 was shown to be massively more powerful than the Borg, then this little ol' Intrepid-class starship shows up one day, comes up with the bright idea to put nanoprobes in a torpedo, fire it into a fissure in space, and suddenly the previously super-duper powerful species is rendered incapacitated. Say, this sounds a lot like what I just said DS9 DIDN'T do. Booooooom, reset.

Would you rather they did what Farscape did, and have random godlike aliens put the knowledge for a superweapon that could easily annihilate both the Borg and the 8472 into Janeway's head, have her spend a few seasons being chased before she decodes it and uses the superweapon to annihilate them all?

Because otherwise, you can't do much with a weakling scout ship.


As you point out, we already knew this from TNG. But again, here's where Voyager takes a great idea and shelves it. Booooooom, reset.

Endgame would have been a billion times better if they built on the internal civil war that the Borg were going to have, showed Unimatrix Zero-liberated drones taking down the Hive from the inside, and then leading Voyager on a merry chase through transwarp conduits until they get back to Earth. We already knew that there were thousands of Borg being liberated, and it would have been great story-telling if the only enemy that could defeat the Borg was THE BORG themselves.

They knew all this from TNG, and they still hated it when VOY did it. That's why they shelved it, they had no reason to continue a hated storyline. If they had done what you suggest, they'd still hate it and say it was an emasculation because it was built on the idea that the Borg didn't have 100% control over the Drones despite TNG showing us they didn't.

Year of Hell would have worked a lot better as a Voyager movie. Except for the Booooooom, reset at the end.

They was no way to fix the ship, and if they had just ended it that way the show would just end there and then with them being a bunch of bums living on some Krenim world somewhere.
 
Unimatrix Zero wasn't liked because it was badly written and had Janeway, Tuvok and Torres all assimilated then de-assimilated offscreen totally implausibly.
 
Picard was assimilated off-screen, and his de-assimilation surgery (which Crusher said would be simple to do) happened off-screen as well. And that was when they didn't even know much about the Borg compared to the VOY crews' superior knowledge.

And the vaccine the Doctor used (which was only temporary to begin with) could easily have been developed from studying Picard's Borg implants as well. And Hugh, and Seven as well. They were better prepared, and it fit in continuity.
 
Picard was assimilated off-screen, and his de-assimilation surgery (which Crusher said would be simple to do) happened off-screen as well. And that was when they didn't even know much about the Borg compared to the VOY crews' superior knowledge.

And the vaccine the Doctor used (which was only temporary to begin with) could easily have been developed from studying Picard's Borg implants as well. And Hugh, and Seven as well. They were better prepared, and it fit in continuity.
"Unity" is where it starts for Voyager.
The Doc said on-screen that he learned much about the assimilation process from studying the dead Borg Drone they beamed on board from the dead Cube.. It was due to those studies the EMH discovered nano_probes. They also stated in "Dark Frontier" that they salvaged more info about the assimilation process from a data node they found in the beamed up debris. The EMH had also salvaged a Borg medical arm which furthered his knowledge. He implies his knowledge of how to properly remove Borg tech from a body in "Survival Instinct". So yes, it does follow a continuous arc.

The only hokey part of "Unimatrix Zero" that's hokey is that none of the crew looses anybody parts due to being assimilated. However, Gene Roddenberry had said during the writing of "BOBW", that he didn't want any of the main heroes in Trek to be permanently scarred. The original script of "BOBW" called for Picard to loose an arm during his assimilation before Gene vetoed the concept.
 
That could have been interesting if Picard had lost a limb...a leg say, stuck in a wheelchair, forced to develop his mental prowess...probably would have had to leave the Enterprise though...maybe the Starfleet Academy job was still open, he could have taken over running that school for the gifted...hmmm...this gives me an idea...
 
They were just going to have him keep a cybernetic prosthetic in the case of the Borg removing any of his limbs. If they took his arm (like originally planned) they would just have him wear a glove on his prosthetic arm to hide it and use make-up to show his arm (when revealed) as just being grey-skin compared to the rest of him.

It's better than Luke in Star Wars, where Luke's hand is indistinguishable from his old hand.
 
I really liked the Vaadwaur, and thought that "Dragon's Teeth" was a fantastic episode. As for the likelihood of them presenting a problem for others or showing up again later in the seventh season... why not? So what if their technology is out of date. It was still effective enough that a few squadrons of comparatively tiny fighters were able to give Voyager a good fight. These same ships later broke through the line that the Vaadwaur's enemies had established around their planet. It may not be top of the line technology, but it's clearly more than adequate to get by. Once they established their new colony, I don't think it would have been any kind of stretch to have them turn up again on the show, especially since it isn't as if ALL of their subspace corridors were mapped. They could simply use one to show up out of nowhere later, wherever Voyager happens to be.

That they didn't reappear is a real shame. And since there was a line that heavily implied they would be back, I consider it a major dropped ball, as well. Seriously, VOY writers: don't foreshadow really interesting plotlines and then not follow through!
I liked the concept that Flesh and Blood re-introduced of the holgrams fighting the Hirogen, but not the execution. If if I were a writer I would not have gone the direction they did with the story. The Holograms should NOT have been self-aware, and frankly the stories dealing with The Doctor's humanity were very weak to me.
I dunno... The Doctor's sentience and individuality basically came about because the Voyager crew A) kept him on so damn much, and B) let him explore non-medical things such as music, art, etc. His self-awareness developed over a moderate period of time, essentially without anyone really trying to make it happen. Seems reasonable to me that the holograms being used by the Hirogen could have also become self-aware, over a somewhat shorter period of time, since the Hirogen were constantly trying to make them better prey. They were trying to make them as lifelike as possible, and they ultimately became a little too much so.

I liked the ep, personally. In particular, I thought it was paced in a very clever way. We go from a mystery plot, to the Hirogen possibly being victims, to the "truth": the Hirogen took things too far, and the holograms are the victims, and Voyager is caught in the middle. Then, later on, they pull another reversal, and the holograms aren't victims anymore after all. Nicely played, I thought.
The Hirogen were awesome.
I just wish Trek was graphic enough to show them eating somebody.:lol::lol:
ewww

Do we know if the Hirogen eat their sentient prey? Wouldn't surprise me all that much, really, I just don't remember if it was ever established.
Honestly, I don't think he is.
Anwar and I have been members here for a veeeery long time. Posters used to liken Rick Berman to Hitler and trash Voyager for any reason they could think of. There were folks here mad a Berman because he didn't write stores of Janeway getting raped. Posters would avoid the Voyager forum because it was that hostile in here. I think allot of the opinions Anwar has are from comments made by haters back in the day.
He is, quite a bit. Generalizing, that is.

Whatever may or may not have gone on years ago is irrelevant. As long as I've been a member here (almost three years now), there has been no frothing anti-VOY hatred. No Hatedome. Yet the incessant ranting about it continues. So, yes, he is generalizing, among other things.
That could have been interesting if Picard had lost a limb...a leg say, stuck in a wheelchair, forced to develop his mental prowess...probably would have had to leave the Enterprise though...maybe the Starfleet Academy job was still open, he could have taken over running that school for the gifted...hmmm...this gives me an idea...
Ha. I was about to point out that Picard wouldn't end up in a wheelchair, since any limbs lost to the Borg would just be replaced, then I read the rest of your post. Well played. :D
 
Please stop generalizing about how much you think everybody has it in for Voyager.
Honestly, I don't think he is.
Anwar and I have been members here for a veeeery long time. Posters used to liken Rick Berman to Hitler and trash Voyager for any reason they could think of. There were folks here mad a Berman because he didn't write stores of Janeway getting raped. Posters would avoid the Voyager forum because it was that hostile in here. I think allot of the opinions Anwar has are from comments made by haters back in the day.

I've been here for seven years (and before that, I spent five years at Trek-RPG.net). I don't know if that's a long time, but it's a decent while, and a lot of what Anwar has to say about "the audience" just seems to be made up to me. In the very least he's making generalizations that don't reflect the broad range of opinions I've seen online.
 
I dunno... The Doctor's sentience and individuality basically came about because the Voyager crew A) kept him on so damn much, and B) let him explore non-medical things such as music, art, etc. His self-awareness developed over a moderate period of time, essentially without anyone really trying to make it happen. Seems reasonable to me that the holograms being used by the Hirogen could have also become self-aware, over a somewhat shorter period of time, since the Hirogen were constantly trying to make them better prey. They were trying to make them as lifelike as possible, and they ultimately became a little too much so.

And to be honest, sentient holograms are nothing new to trek anyway, at least the ones here developed over time, and weren't just created by someone saying "make it capable of beating Data.."
 
Please stop generalizing about how much you think everybody has it in for Voyager.
Honestly, I don't think he is.
Anwar and I have been members here for a veeeery long time. Posters used to liken Rick Berman to Hitler and trash Voyager for any reason they could think of. There were folks here mad a Berman because he didn't write stores of Janeway getting raped. Posters would avoid the Voyager forum because it was that hostile in here. I think allot of the opinions Anwar has are from comments made by haters back in the day.

I've been here for seven years (and before that, I spent five years at Trek-RPG.net). I don't know if that's a long time, but it's a decent while, and a lot of what Anwar has to say about "the audience" just seems to be made up to me. In the very least he's making generalizations that don't reflect the broad range of opinions I've seen online.

What really gets my goat is how other shows that are better remembered get away with the same stuff Voyager did, but no one cares or complains. Other "Lost Ship" shows use recurring aliens and having the main characters be important to the greater setting, but if Voyager ever did anything big, cool and important the reaction is always negative no matter how well written it is.
 
ewww

Do we know if the Hirogen eat their sentient prey? Wouldn't surprise me all that much, really, I just don't remember if it was ever established.
They explained al of this and other aspects of their culture in "Hunters".

I've been here for seven years (and before that, I spent five years at Trek-RPG.net). I don't know if that's a long time, but it's a decent while, and a lot of what Anwar has to say about "the audience" just seems to be made up to me. In the very least he's making generalizations that don't reflect the broad range of opinions I've seen online.

Trust me, the forum in the last 5 years isn't the sameone it was 1o years ago. The former MODs did an awesome job cleaning this place up by getting rid of the Trolls.


He is, quite a bit. Generalizing, that is.

Whatever may or may not have gone on years ago is irrelevant. As long as I've been a member here (almost three years now), there has been no frothing anti-VOY hatred. No Hatedome. Yet the incessant ranting about it continues. So, yes, he is generalizing, among other things.
Anwar and I have been members for 15 years.(It maybe even longer than that.) The only other I can think of that has been a member in this forum that long is kimc.
I really wouldn't expect anybody to understand what he's referring to only being here for 3. How could you, you weren't here.
 
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What I liked about the 'Flesh and Blood' is the writers kept a scientific bent in the development of the Holograms. To explore the far reaches of humanity in a synthesized person is no small task.
Why should Janeway be so personal about how much power they have - there are more male than female holograms. The story could have ended with them starting out on the barren planet and all they wanted was the holo-matrix field generator.
 
To be fair, I wasn't posting in 2002 when it was REALLY ugly. I was an observer/guest, and my registering was mainly because I just couldn't stand the VOY bashing any further.
 
After taking a look back...how is it any different than now? From April 10th 2001; http://web.archive.org/web/20010410...forum=Voyager&number=5&DaysPrune=2&LastLogin=

From June 3rd 2001; http://web.archive.org/web/20010603...forum=Voyager&number=5&DaysPrune=2&LastLogin=

The Dragon's Teeth thread; http://web.archive.org/web/20010617022037/http://trekbbs.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/005958.html



It is the internet...you are gonna have people who are sincere and people who are trolls...it is even worse if there is a active series.

I need to add those questions from 'The Joy Of Seven' thread to my very own appreciation thread. :D
 
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