Use of the Force in the OT
- Thread starter Anduril
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If Vader had that kind of power, why would the Death Star have needed a tractor beam in ANH?
Are you referring to the way the Force was used in the ST:Force Unleashed video game?
I don't think there were any indication in any of the other Star Wars movies where the Force could act on an already fast movie object. Otherwise, Qui-Gon would have used the Force to cheat during the pod race.
The footage I had seen from the game sprang to mind.
Vader isn't as powerful as Galen Marek. He is actually pretty weak at the level of Maul or Dooku and thats with whatever Sith rituals are being used to keep him in that current state.
I was always curious about the (then) in-universe details of how force powers worked along with physical limitations (brought on by age or injury or just the kind of body one was born into).
When the first movie came out, there was nothing to compare Ben and Vader's duel to. In ESB, you see Luke is more physically agile but Vader is still more powerful. He uses the force to throw crap at Luke. I know Yoda was teaching Luke how to move objects through the force but Vader's use seemed more dark sidey, I guess. And in ROTJ, while Palpatine is old and moves around like an old guy, he has the lightning hands thing, which also seemed like something Ben wouldn't have done even if he had the option.
Overall it seemed the Jedi in the OT were focused on inner strength and knowing oneself and peace (while also willing to use the force in defensive ways for good) and the Sith had a variety of ways to use the force to get what they wanted, regardless of what kind of pain it caused. It also made the Sith come across as more powerful.
I mean sure, at the time I wondered about Yoda and lightsabers, but actually seeing it in the PT was weird. I wonder if Lucas tossed ideas around in his head during the OT about having Palpatine or Yoda wield lightsabers or anything else. I certainly enjoy the OT's more limited/restrained display of the force than the PT's crazy Jedi smackdown, but it's not like the OT didn't make me wonder about some stuff. I still think it's at the very least highly questionable that Ben and Yoda's solution is to lay down their weapons and die when Luke was the only remaining trained Jedi. I mean hey Yoda, why not teach Leia a few things in case this Luke thing goes south?
When the first movie came out, there was nothing to compare Ben and Vader's duel to. In ESB, you see Luke is more physically agile but Vader is still more powerful. He uses the force to throw crap at Luke. I know Yoda was teaching Luke how to move objects through the force but Vader's use seemed more dark sidey, I guess. And in ROTJ, while Palpatine is old and moves around like an old guy, he has the lightning hands thing, which also seemed like something Ben wouldn't have done even if he had the option.
Overall it seemed the Jedi in the OT were focused on inner strength and knowing oneself and peace (while also willing to use the force in defensive ways for good) and the Sith had a variety of ways to use the force to get what they wanted, regardless of what kind of pain it caused. It also made the Sith come across as more powerful.
I mean sure, at the time I wondered about Yoda and lightsabers, but actually seeing it in the PT was weird. I wonder if Lucas tossed ideas around in his head during the OT about having Palpatine or Yoda wield lightsabers or anything else. I certainly enjoy the OT's more limited/restrained display of the force than the PT's crazy Jedi smackdown, but it's not like the OT didn't make me wonder about some stuff. I still think it's at the very least highly questionable that Ben and Yoda's solution is to lay down their weapons and die when Luke was the only remaining trained Jedi. I mean hey Yoda, why not teach Leia a few things in case this Luke thing goes south?
Well I always figured it was just Yoda's time, he was old and he'd hung on as long as he could, and it may even be that training Luke took what was left of his energy As for Obi Wan, he knew there was no way he could beat Vader, and he also probably suspected that iof he kept fighting Luke would be drawn towards them, and either he'd be killed, or be in no position to fight being turned by Vader and the Emperor. Of course if this was the plan it almost backfired when Luke went a bit blaster crazy...
As for Vader stopping the Falcon. Did we see anyone even in the PT do something like that (I can't recall) and whilst Yoda lifted Luke's X-Wing out of the swamp there's a difference between an inanimate object and one that's moving at high speed surely?
As for Vader stopping the Falcon. Did we see anyone even in the PT do something like that (I can't recall) and whilst Yoda lifted Luke's X-Wing out of the swamp there's a difference between an inanimate object and one that's moving at high speed surely?
Well, anything any of us might come up with is almost total speculation, but I'll play.
What if Yoda lifting the X-Wing was itself a record for a Jedi? Yoda may have come to some deep realization about Force telekinetics on Dagobah that went beyond the Jedi training from the Old Republic. In that case, although Vader could throw around a lot of small objects, maybe he just didn't have the proper mindset to move a much heavier one, under thrust.
Aside from the fact that the Falcon was under thrust, as Starkers said, it was also occupied by both Luke and Leia [EDIT: No not Luke; just Leia! Geez, see next post!]. This raises a related issue I've wondered about, which is to what degree Force powers get canceled out by the presence of Force wielders from the opposite side. A cancellation effect would explain why, for example, the Jedi can't always run at Flash speed.
Furthermore, if mental concentration was always an issue, then even the most adept Force wielders might be easily enough distracted by events so that they were always operating below their theoretically maximal power levels. For example, if you concentrate hard enough, sure you might be able to move that Star Destroyer, but the stormtrooper standing next to you will be able to just shoot you in the head with a blaster if you do that, because you go into such a trance that you can't see it coming.
What if Yoda lifting the X-Wing was itself a record for a Jedi? Yoda may have come to some deep realization about Force telekinetics on Dagobah that went beyond the Jedi training from the Old Republic. In that case, although Vader could throw around a lot of small objects, maybe he just didn't have the proper mindset to move a much heavier one, under thrust.
Aside from the fact that the Falcon was under thrust, as Starkers said, it was also occupied by both Luke and Leia [EDIT: No not Luke; just Leia! Geez, see next post!]. This raises a related issue I've wondered about, which is to what degree Force powers get canceled out by the presence of Force wielders from the opposite side. A cancellation effect would explain why, for example, the Jedi can't always run at Flash speed.
Furthermore, if mental concentration was always an issue, then even the most adept Force wielders might be easily enough distracted by events so that they were always operating below their theoretically maximal power levels. For example, if you concentrate hard enough, sure you might be able to move that Star Destroyer, but the stormtrooper standing next to you will be able to just shoot you in the head with a blaster if you do that, because you go into such a trance that you can't see it coming.
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Oh yeah. Sorry. You know what, I misread that and thought the OP was talking about the climax. 
I'm sure this was the reasoning when only part IV existed, but I can't say I understand why Ben would be so much weaker than Vader in general. Basically this suggests that the dark side is stronger than the light side, right? Palpatine isn't a pushover just because he's old. Or is it a "use it or lose it" thing and when Ben was hanging out in the desert he just completely neglected his force exercises?
Ben is old; his body has become weak.
As for altogether weaker: it's only been established that the good side supports life after death. Living on forever in the Force sounds pretty strong to me. There's nothing whatsoever in the films to suggest that the dark side is stronger.
I guess the main confusion on my part is how old Palpatine is supposed to be. Because he doesn't seem weak at all compared with Ben.
Fair comment, but you've just put a really disturbing image in my head, what is one day Lucas remasters SW again and has Alec Guiness flying around like Yoda...oh the horror!
I guess it is just that Obi Wan is old...plus maybe he hasn't been keeping up to speed with his Force updates?
As for Palpatine, well he does have almost the entirity of the dark side flowing through him, plus whilst the dark side might not be stronger, it's easier to misuse--plus I guess you could argue the dark side keeps you alive much longer, but once you're dead, you're dead. The light side on the other hand won't keep you alive longer than your allotted years, but will ensure your spirit survives.
Yes. The films support this idea.
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