Us Damned Americans

[Deckerd]

You're absolutely right that it's never wise to judge the citizenry of a nation based on the actions of the government.

Indeed. Iran springs to mind almost immediately.

 

[Amaris]

I think another important point is that our perspectives take different views of power relations based on our point of origin. Take the United Nations. One interesting thing I've observed is that non-Americans opposed to the UN (or at least to some of its policies and activities) tend to see the UN and the USA as practically synonymous. They see UN policy as an American agenda, or enforcing an American-centric worldview. On the other hand, Americans who dislike the UN or its policies tend to see it as a European-centric organization, and its influence as a European intrusion into American culture. So the non-Americans define the UN as basically "American" and the Americans define it as "non-American". So there we are.

It can definitely be hard on everyone - we have to remember, I think, that the average American in the street is in the same position as the average member-of-any-other-nation-in-the-street: their lives under the influence of other power blocs they may not like or consider alien. The Americans are in exactly the same boat as the rest of us.

Exactly. It's like our relationship with the French (as a nation). We have people who go on and on and on about French people are arrogant, stuck up, and lazy. There are people in France who go on and on and on about how Americans are arrogant, stuck up, and lazy. It's as if those people don't even comprehend the culture they deride.

It doesn't matter that the good people far outweigh the bad and that we're more alike than different, it's a grudge of convenience, based on skewed interpretations of whatever filters into their accepted culture and vice versa.

 

[Deckerd]

I hate to break this to you but the French don't really care about the USA or Americans. They certainly don't fret about the rampant francophobia in the USA. From my experience they have the same attitude as other Europeans; that the USA is a warmonger and the UK is its little bitch.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Sometimes America-bashing is deserved. We're far from perfect. But often the criticisms are on based on envy or jealousy, in which case I just ignore it.

Most of the times, that is not the case. People all over the world tend to be gobsmacked about how arrogant Americans often come across (not necessarily my opinion, just sayin' ). You guys live in a radically capitalist country with hardly any support for the lower classes...it's pure social Darwinism, and yet many Americans seem to believe that their country is more democratic than everyone else's, and that everyone totally wants to live there. Also, many of your compatriots seem to think that they are in a place to lecture others on democracy, hygiene, social conduct, even morality.

You would not believe the shit I got for my "decadent European mentality" and my "alcohol problem". I don't have one, I just don't lie about consuming it. They actually tried to teach us how civilised people disinfect their hands, because us barbarians don't know how to do that, or how to brush our teeth. And some of those foreigners were Canadians- they were not from outer space.

There is the fact that Americans often have absolutely no idea of how other cultures function, and many don't even try. In the media, other countries get ridiculed to no end, but when someone makes fun of the USA, it's the fucking end of the world (Another thing that got me in trouble was my constant swearing).

You should see how the customs people at American airports treat foreigners. It's enraging, to say the least.

Now, I know that the mentality is just incompatible with European liberal thought, but people all over have a hard time understanding that their way of looking at the world isn't universal. That goes both ways.

I think "hating Americans" is dumb. I like the USA, I lived there for a while, but it's just not for me in the long run. All in all, the people I met were very friendly and nice, and I had a great time.

 

[Amaris]

I hate to break this to you but the French don't really care about the USA or Americans. They certainly don't fret about the rampant francophobia in the USA. From my experience they have the same attitude as other Europeans; that the USA is a warmonger and the UK is its little bitch.

Oh, if you hated to break it to me you'd have buttered me up first.

I'm glad that, in general, French people don't hate Americans. There, I've learned something. Now if only I can work on this whole "warmonger" thing.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

We've all heard the half-joking comments that compare the USA to a large, enthusiastic dog in a small room. It wags its tail and jumps up to lick people in the face and it can get a bit much in such a small, crowded space. And yes, sometimes it bites, and because it's so big those bites do more damage than might have been intended. America has been very prosperous, it's been economically and culturally dominant - it's a big dog indeed, at present. And its wagging tail and jumping to lick is irritating to many. But the Americans tend to be a culture proud of their shared national identity - and I don't mean that as either a complaint or a compliment, just an observation. They tend to be patriotic, proud of their identity as Americans, supportive of their national culture. So they'll be offended or resistant if you suggest they stop wagging their tail or bounding about. That's an imposition on their culture and their identity, and crosses (I think) a line that from their perspective renders you unacceptably intolerant. From an American perspective, who is anyone else to tell them not to embrace their cultural identity? Once the dog becomes a bit smaller, so to speak, I expect no-one will mind as much, because its wagging tail won't be knocking on people so much and causing (usually unintended) irritation.

And, if I may, I think these are difficult times for the USA. For most of its history it stood apart. It was founded as an escape from old European systems, embraced a new form of government and was the place where you went to find a new life. It's very much true that America was the place of new beginnings, the place where ethnic groups from across Europe and elsewhere emigrated, escaping the feuds and bickerings and petty hatreds that define so many. That's not me gushing - it should be clear I don't hold any "America is the greatest!" views - it's just the truth. America was a new beginning for so many. But now, America has been dragged back into the thick of it. They're having a rude awakening that the "old world" of a thousand ethnic squabbles and hatreds is still here, and they're part of it. The troubles with the Mexican border (which are identical to any number of immigration issues in countless European countries), the last few decades' adventures in the Middle East, the attack on New York which really shattered the sense that America was still the land that stood apart from all that. The USA, I think, is having a big cold splash in the face at present, trying to adapt to a world that's finally caught up with it. America isn't the land of opportunity any more, no longer the horizon where anyone can make a new life regardless of origin. They've been pulled (by their own success, their own promotion of globalization, their own economic strength), back into the world they escaped from in the first place. They bounded out into the world and now they're stuck with it. And they're still a very big dog. Big, jumpy, enthusiastic dog. Now also quite a shell-shocked dog, I think.

That's another reason not to judge too harshly - on the one hand, Americans are in the same boat as the rest of us, as I said upthread. But on the other, they have their historic expectations specific to their culture, which are undergoing some difficult transitions.

I'm not American, so my observations here might be total bull***t from their perspective, but that's the impression I get. I just think one of the reasons the world is having trouble with the USA is because Americans are having trouble with the world. They shot to power and influence very quickly, and are still adjusting.

 

[Amaris]

We've all heard the half-joking comments that compare the USA to a large, enthusiastic dog in a small room. It wags its tail and jumps up to lick people in the face and it can get a bit much in such a small, crowded space. And yes, sometimes it bites, and because it's so big those bites do more damage than might have been intended. America has been very prosperous, it's been economically and culturally dominant - it's a big dog indeed, at present. And its wagging tail and jumping to lick is irritating to many. But the Americans tend to be a culture proud of their shared national identity - and I don't mean that as either a complaint or a compliment, just an observation. They tend to be patriotic, proud of their identity as Americans, supportive of their national culture. So they'll be offended or resistant if you suggest they stop wagging their tail or bounding about. That's an imposition on their culture and their identity, and crosses (I think) a line that from their perspective renders you unacceptably intolerant. From an American perspective, who is anyone else to tell them not to embrace their cultural identity? Once the dog becomes a bit smaller, so to speak, I expect no-one will mind as much, because its wagging tail won't be knocking on people so much and causing (usually unintended) irritation.

And, if I may, I think these are difficult times for the USA. For most of its history it stood apart. It was founded as an escape from old European systems, embraced a new form of government and was the place where you went to find a new life. It's very much true that America was the place of new beginnings, the place where ethnic groups from across Europe and elsewhere emigrated, escaping the feuds and bickerings and petty hatreds that define so many. That's not me gushing - it should be clear I don't hold any "America is the greatest!" views - it's just the truth. America was a new beginning for so many. But now, America has been dragged back into the thick of it. They're having a rude awakening that the "old world" of a thousand ethnic squabbles and hatreds is still here, and they're part of it. The troubles with the Mexican border (which are identical to any number of immigration issues in countless European countries), the last few decades' adventures in the Middle East, the attack on New York which really shattered the sense that America was still the land that stood apart from all that. The USA, I think, is having a big cold splash in the face at present, trying to adapt to a world that's finally caught up with it. America isn't the land of opportunity any more, no longer the horizon where anyone can make a new life regardless of origin. They've been pulled (by their own success, their own promotion of globalization, their own economic strength), back into the world they escaped from in the first place. They bounded out into the world and now they're stuck with it. And they're still a very big dog. Big, jumpy, enthusiastic dog. Now also quite a shell-shocked dog, I think.

That's another reason not to judge too harshly - on the one hand, Americans are in the same boat as the rest of us, as I said upthread. But on the other, they have their historic expectations specific to their culture, which are undergoing some difficult transitions.

I'm not American, so my observations here might be total bull***t from their perspective, but that's the impression I get. I just think one of the reasons the world is having trouble with the USA is because Americans are having trouble with the world. They shot to power and influence very quickly, and are still adjusting.

That sounds about right.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

We've all heard the half-joking comments that compare the USA to a large, enthusiastic dog in a small room.
...
They shot to power and influence very quickly, and are still adjusting.

Thank you, Deranged Nasat, that was very well put. I am an American, a natural born citizen of the United States.

The idea that Americans all think the same is of course bullshit. If you think they do, then you really don't understand anything about the United States, even if you did live here once. As for the video in the OP, it appears to be offensive unbecoming vitriol spewing from the flag-waving protesters and speakers. Should the video prove to be authentic, I would certainly agree that such really did spew from them.

Sweeping generalizations about Americans, of the kind "all Americans think this" or "most Americans think that", are very often patently offensive, and are often based on perception, not backed up by actual data. I usually see sweeping generalizations as nothing but the flip side of the ugly coin evidently shown in the OP video.

Greater honesty is indicated to be taken seriously.

How about instead, "some Americans think this" or "certain Americans think that", please. Also good would be "many Americans think this". If you really want to get your point across regarding apparent uniform behavior, then good would be "it really seems as if all Americans think that". It might theoretically be true that nearly all do think that way, but far more likely is that some truncation of either data or data gathering has occurred.

I encourage Americans to observe the same honesty and fairness in reverse. I think backing off from knee-jerk sweeping generalizations might be a good place to begin to improve the world.

 

[Shaytan]

I'm glad that, in general, French people don't hate Americans.

Hate ? No, and even less jealousy, believe me. But so easy to mock

 

[O'Dib]

It's true Americans are over-confident. In poll-results, they always rank themselves much better than the reality of the situation. This comes through in daily interactions, when you hear people offer ridiculous information with absolute certainty. This usually comes up when geography is the topic. Like Europe is the size of Texas - you drive for twenty minutes, and lo and behold, a different culture, a new language! The United States is 25,000 miles wide (much like the Earth)! Obviously though, it's not the people's fault, it's the educational system.

 

[RandyS]

Oh, a lot of anti-American sentiment in the world is jealousy, no doubt about it. At this time in History, America is the dominant culture and that inevitably breeds resentment.

Well said, my friend.

Resentment and jealousy are not the same thing.

No, but the former is usually a product of the latter.

 

[Deckerd]

Europeans don't envy anything about the USA. We're all socialists remember? We like where we live and we have a smugness that comes from having countries much older than the USA. Coming through Europe, however, are Africans, Asians and Chinese all desperate to get to the Promised Land. They've bought the whole fairytale. Most of them don't make it but maybe some do.

 

[Count Zero]

If you want to stay sane and content don't ever read the comments on YouTube or really, on most news sites. Just a few days ago I read the most homophobic comments I've ever seen under a totally harmless article.

I don't think people hate America or Americans any more than they do other countries. I'm sure you can find similar comments about most other nations in the world, many of those comments coming then from Americans.
I don't know anyone who hates America or Americans or holds all of them responsible for the actions of the US government (although it is true that those of us living in democracies have some measure of responsibility for those actions, in an abstract way at least). And some of them are rather critical of the USA, i.e. its policies mostly. However, a lot of Americans seem to think that they're universally hated which is something that really bugs me.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

One more (VERY) lengthy observation (sorry!):

I think a large part of the problem is a cultural divide rendered more serious by America's prosperity. The basic issue here (well, one of them) is simple discomfort and irritation on the part of many non-Americans for patriotic pride in an overt, assertive sense, coupled with an enthusiastic self-expression along those very lines on the part of many Americans. This has great potential to become a bit of a sore point, but is otherwise mostly easy to ignore. But the fact that America is such an influential nation means what would otherwise be a minor irritation for both sides has potential to be more damaging, because the American tendency for proud self-promotion gets tied in with the very real power America has. It makes the USA seem far more imposing than it might understand or intend to be. And it leads to this very problem of confusing "US government and its actions" with "Americans as a people" - the complaint being made by many in this thread.

I mean, American society seems very patriotic and confidant in a sense of its national identity. Personally - and this, I stress, is my personal preference only, with no bearing on others - I'm not really comfortable with that sort of outlook, I wouldn't hold it myself. To me, the bad inherent in it significantly outweighs the good. And I do especially fear its transformation into a dangerous and arrogant nationalism – this is at least partly a result of my own British heritage, my nation having gone down that road in the past. But that's just me; other people see it differently. And evidently a great number of Americans see the good as outweighing the bad, or consider the risk not as great, and so confident pride in the home country and "waving the flag" is viewed as a virtue.

The thing is, nationalism is an extreme form of a tendency that is otherwise not necessarily dangerous - a national pride and love of country. The tricky part when dealing with a strongly patriotic culture is separating the two out. Every ideology, culture or nation has its extremists - in America's case, those extremist elements often take the form of nationalism, taking the prevalent national pride and blowing it into an arrogance that imposes on others. Most Americans are of course not extremists. But if you're not from a background that promotes patriotic displays or a national confidence (and many nations today are indeed not like that), not only can it be annoying but it can be misinterpreted all too easily. I think many people have a tendency to see Americans waving their flags (literally or otherwise) and assume they must all be nationalist and arrogant like the extremist minority.

Every culture and belief system has the potential for conflict with others, of course, and I'm sure we'd all agree that we have to accept and respect those differences if they’re not imposing on us. Patriotism and a confidant, assertive pride in the nation is a part of mainstream American culture (or so it appears to me). It's something I'm personally uncomfortable with; I find strong and overt patriotism rather distasteful. It makes me sigh a bit. But my personal views are of course irrelevant; because that’s how these people view things, how they work, and I have no right to tell them how to act when they’re not imposing on me. As a general observation, if you’re dealing with groups of Americans, you accept that they’ll often sprinkle a bit of “pro-America” into things, because that’s their way. It's not arrogance as such, it's their cultural norm. Most of them mean no harm and aren’t trying to impose, they’re just being true to themselves. Same as any culture - and it may be somewhat annoying to many non-Americans, but if you can’t accept a few minor subjective irritants you have no business dealing with other peoples, and that’s to your detriment, I think we would agree. Whether it’s cultures, nations, or just individuals, we all have the potential to irritate and we all recognize the necessity of tolerance and acceptance. Most Americans no doubt observe the same polite, tolerant silence when any of our national perculiarities make them privately sigh a bit.

And of course if they're not in fact imposing but you respond as if they are, then your attitude can be imposing to them. A lot of Americans must feel like they're constantly being watched with hostility, as though non-American folk - who often distrust patriotic display - are glaring at them from across the room like eagle-eyed sour librarians, daring them to wave that flag, ready to jump on them if they do. And they're thinking "I can wave my flag if I want - why are you trying to dictate how I can or can’t express myself?"

That's the problem (to repeat myself); if you read extremist tendencies into generalized action then you can end up imposing on others instead, in the mistaken belief that they're imposing. In the case of America, their powerful status and influence mean that when they do what comes naturally in their culture - make a show of pride and support for the home nation and American identity - it often comes across as more imposing than they actually intend. Their cultural tendency towards a proud assertion of their American-ness comes across as very “in your face” and generally aggressive. And unfortunately, the fact that there are a number of American nationalists and that loud-mouthed extremists dominate any conversation no matter how much of a minority they are, means that the whole culture gets tarred with the same brush.

I guess what I’m saying is that overall it’s difficult, because this type of overt national pride is something most European cultures (and many others) have dropped, and we tend to distrust it. And we have to remind ourselves that while it’s fine to call out a genuine American nationalist, we must be careful of misreading American behaviours and attributing to them a worldview they don’t in fact hold.

Basically, America is big and powerful and so inevitably sometimes throws its weight around (and I've been critical of many of the US government's actions in the past). The American people have a strong streak of patriotic pride. Unfortunately, it's easy for people to asume the two are intertwined, that Americans as a people think "God bless America" equals "God bless anything our government decides to do!". Most Americans of course don't think that way at all, the exception being nationalists, who are then unfortunately taken as "proof" that "Americans are like that".

It's an unfortunate situation, but overall I don't think either the Americans or the "assorted non-Americans" mean any real harm. It's largely cultural mistranslation coupled with wariness of America's currently great power.

 

[Deckerd]

I get confused between patriotism and nationalism. What I mean is I can't see a distinction. In my country there is a clear distinction between loyalty to our country (almost universal) and largely mindless chauvinism, where people stick 'proud to be [insert country]' on their cars and so forth, as if they had achieved something by being born there. In my opinion the only people who can claim this are immigrants who actively chose to come here.

 

[Owain Taggart]

There is the fact that Americans often have absolutely no idea of how other cultures function, and many don't even try. In the media, other countries get ridiculed to no end, but when someone makes fun of the USA, it's the fucking end of the world (Another thing that got me in trouble was my constant swearing).

Yeah, exactly. Well said. I get highly irritated when jokes about Canada are made, because most of the time they're based off ideas that are so far off, like comedians on a certain channel proclaiming something as if it were fact, as if he knew what he was talking about, ie jokes that come off sounding arrogant due to not knowing the subject material they're trying to be funny at, and at the same time end up insulting the country which became a big enough issue the comedian had to apologize. These kind of jokes are being said all the time and they're not funny, not only because the person making the joke doesn't know wtf they're talking about, but also because it has the tone of being belittling. Yet when we turn around and try to defend ourselves... whoa, watch out. And people wonder why Canada tends to feel angry at the US at times. It's also why I dislike jokes like "America's Hat", as again, it feels like we're belittled by it.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I get confused between patriotism and nationalism. What I mean is I can't see a distinction. In my country there is a clear distinction between loyalty to our country (almost universal) and largely mindless chauvinism, where people stick 'proud to be [insert country]' on their cars and so forth, as if they had achieved something by being born there. In my opinion the only people who can claim this are immigrants who actively chose to come here.

I understand entirely. I think that's our European bias - we tend to get wary about many distinctly American forms of patriotism because they differ from our own sense of national loyalty, and seem to our eyes to be close to nationalism. They're more assertive and overt, for one. And because of our countrys' mutual histories nationalism is a big, big negative to us. So we tend to be jumpy when confronted with the sort of love-for-country that comes normally to Americans.

 

[Deckerd]

Of course, aside from the indigenous peoples, everyone in the USA is from immigrant stock, so that's why it has become so important to declare nationality.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Of course, aside from the indigenous peoples, everyone in the USA is from immigrant stock, so that's why it has become so important to declare nationality.

Good point. The Americans had to construct a shared national identity out of immigrant populations, and one different from the places they'd left. To them, a strong sense of national identity was a strength and a necessity. To us, with our histories, it's more often considered something to be wary of.

 

[Shaytan]

Of course, aside from the indigenous peoples, everyone in the USA is from immigrant stock, so that's why it has become so important to declare nationality.

Yeah but they still claim proudly that they're german-irish-whatever...sounds illogical to me...