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UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

As long as there's no direct evidence that it can't be the same universe then I just assume everything is in the same universe. I don't really see any direct evidence that Spock Prime didn't come from the TOS-Ent universe, so I assume he does. In fact I think ruins the character's role in the story if he isn't. The whole point of the character being in the movies is that he's the Spock who we've been following since TOS, and so he creates a connection between what we know from the TOS-Ent Universe to the Abramsverse. I don't see any reason to go against that.
 
Nut, if there's numerous universes of TOS then he could be one of the Spocks that we've seen. Universe 1234 where Khan is the product of Eugenics or universe 5678 where's he's created by genetic engineering. We saw both Spocks. This is one of them. Or another. Does it really matter? We saw an older version of a character come back in time after failing to save Romulus and inadvertently supply the villain with the means to destroy Vulcan. That's all we really need. OldSpock convinces NuKirk to take control from his younger self because he's the one that's cut out for command, not his younger self who basically sucks at it. Put nUSpock in his place, second in command and make him your friend. That's all we really need to know.

If Nimoy were dead do you think that they'd refuse to do the film this way? They've recast everyone else. The fact that Nimoy was still alive and willing to do it was a bonus.
 
If Nimoy weren't around I can almost guarantee you that the 2009 film would have been a straight-up reboot.
 
Who knows? He was around so we'll never know. Perhaps they would have gone with Shatner instead. Doesn't matter since Nimoy was around. And it's not like he's never played a Spock from an alternate universe before. Remember Mirror Mirror?

And how many alternate Worf's did Dorn play in one episode alone? Over half a dozen in one shot.
 
If Nimoy weren't around I can almost guarantee you that the 2009 film would have been a straight-up reboot.

Well, not really. They tied it to the original continuity because they knew that Trek fandom was unaccustomed/hostile to the idea of alternative continuities (unlike something like, say, Batman or Transformers or Godzilla fandoms, which are used to having multiple incompatible versions coexisting) and thus would be more likely to accept the new reality if it were anchored in the original and presented as an outgrowth of it. Coaxing Nimoy out of retirement was the ideal way to get that point across (although clearly not everyone got the message), but it wasn't the exclusive reason they did it.
 
Nut, if there's numerous universes of TOS then he could be one of the Spocks that we've seen. Universe 1234 where Khan is the product of Eugenics or universe 5678 where's he's created by genetic engineering. We saw both Spocks. This is one of them. Or another. Does it really matter? We saw an older version of a character come back in time after failing to save Romulus and inadvertently supply the villain with the means to destroy Vulcan. That's all we really need. OldSpock convinces NuKirk to take control from his younger self because he's the one that's cut out for command, not his younger self who basically sucks at it. Put nUSpock in his place, second in command and make him your friend. That's all we really need to know.

If Nimoy were dead do you think that they'd refuse to do the film this way? They've recast everyone else. The fact that Nimoy was still alive and willing to do it was a bonus.
Sure, it's possible in universe, but like I said before, it makes his presence pointless if he isn't from the universe we're familiar with. The whole reason he was in the movie was to give us a connection to the universe we're familiar with, and I see no reason why he couldn't be. Just because you don't like some of the things done in the movie doesn't change that.
 
Sure, it's possible in universe, but like I said before, it makes his presence pointless if he isn't from the universe we're familiar with. The whole reason he was in the movie was to give us a connection to the universe we're familiar with, and I see no reason why he couldn't be.

Exactly. Arguing that it's "possible" is meaningless. It's "possible" that, say, everything Picard has gone through in the past 20 years has just been an extended illusion created by Q, but that doesn't make it sensible to believe it's the case. Many, many things are possible, so that doesn't resolve anything, just defines the options. It skips the all-important next step, which is assessing which of the various possibilities is the most probable one. Or at least the most desirable one from a dramatic standpoint, when discussing fiction.
 
Nut, if there's numerous universes of TOS then he could be one of the Spocks that we've seen. Universe 1234 where Khan is the product of Eugenics or universe 5678 where's he's created by genetic engineering. We saw both Spocks. This is one of them. Or another. Does it really matter? We saw an older version of a character come back in time after failing to save Romulus and inadvertently supply the villain with the means to destroy Vulcan. That's all we really need. OldSpock convinces NuKirk to take control from his younger self because he's the one that's cut out for command, not his younger self who basically sucks at it. Put nUSpock in his place, second in command and make him your friend. That's all we really need to know.

If Nimoy were dead do you think that they'd refuse to do the film this way? They've recast everyone else. The fact that Nimoy was still alive and willing to do it was a bonus.
Sure, it's possible in universe, but like I said before, it makes his presence pointless if he isn't from the universe we're familiar with. The whole reason he was in the movie was to give us a connection to the universe we're familiar with, and I see no reason why he couldn't be. Just because you don't like some of the things done in the movie doesn't change that.

Didn't make it pointless for me. I was "Hey, it's Leonard Nimoy playing Spock again. Cute". I wasn't sitting there trying to figure out how this would fit with which episode/movie/book. Afterwards, when I started thinking about the movie I basically just shuffled it off to it's own little universe and carried on. It's not like I was lying awake at night trying to figure out how to get past the differences between this movie and what came before. There's some things that don't fit exactly so It's just Universe #87392. And since there's no Prime Universe in my mint (Like Earth 1 in DC comics) I just let it go at that.

Which Spock is the Prime Spock? None of them. Do you really think that this guy also has a 50 foot tall clone somewhere?
 
Within the broad strokes that TV/film (but, apparently, not enough fans) operates in it very much is the same Spock from "the Cage" which appeared on-screen in Into Darkness, and the white British Khan seen in ID is the same guy as the brownfaced Latino guy in "Space Seed"
 
If Nimoy weren't around I can almost guarantee you that the 2009 film would have been a straight-up reboot.

The 2009 film SHOULD have been a straight-up reboot. After all, how many versions of Batman have there been? Of Superman? Sherlock Holmes? Dick Tracy? The Twilight Zone? James Bond (okay, THAT one's a special case because despite the change in actors, it's intended to be the same series. The inconsistency of Judi Dench's M being new to Brosnan while at the same time also being there when Craig's Bond first joined the serivce notwithstanding)? Battlestar Galactica (although, I HATE to even acknoweldge Ron Moore's version)? It's not like we fans wouldn't have been receptive to that. it's not a hard concept to understand.

By NOT making the Chris Pine Star Trek a reboot with no ties to previous Star Treks, the situation was made complicated when it didn't need to be. Bob Orci openly referenced the parralell universes seen in TNG's "Parralells" as a explanation for the change, which is good enough for me, but for some reason I still don't understand, is not widely accepted.

But, whatever. I'm getting tired of arguing the same damn point over and over. I just hate for the novels to reach 2387 and see everything that has come before erased simply because the writers are beholden to follow the onscreen policy.
 
But, whatever. I'm getting tired of arguing the same damn point over and over. I just hate for the novels to reach 2387 and see everything that has come before erased simply because the writers are beholden to follow the onscreen policy.
Nothing's getting erased, don't worry. The novels already spelled out the black hole/AU concept in the first DTI novel.
 
The 2009 film SHOULD have been a straight-up reboot. After all, how many versions of Batman have there been? Of Superman? Sherlock Holmes? Dick Tracy? The Twilight Zone? James Bond (okay, THAT one's a special case because despite the change in actors, it's intended to be the same series. The inconsistency of Judi Dench's M being new to Brosnan while at the same time also being there when Craig's Bond first joined the serivce notwithstanding)? Battlestar Galactica (although, I HATE to even acknoweldge Ron Moore's version)? It's not like we fans wouldn't have been receptive to that. it's not a hard concept to understand.

But that's just it -- Trek fans have spent many, many years screaming and arguing on the Internet about every niggling continuity glitch and inconsistency, while other fans have said many times that they have no interest in reading Trek novels or comics that don't "count" as canon. Trek fans -- maybe not the majority, but the vocal minority who dominate the public dialogue -- have a history of being unusually hostile to the idea of alternate continuities, an aversion that they seem to share with few other fandoms, notably Star Wars fandom. So the filmmakers were convinced that they had to connect the new continuity to the old or Trek fans would never accept it.

Of course, what they didn't realize is that the purists have been rejecting every new interpretation of Trek as "wrong" since the animated series first came out 40 years ago. As we've seen, their attempts to tie the new reality to the old haven't won over the purists anyway. So I agree, ideally they should've just made a completely fresh start. But they had good reason to believe fandom would be hostile to that, because Trek fandom has spent decades being vocally and aggressively hostile to alternative continuities.

Which is partly because we have no experience with them. Unlike many long-running franchises, all the various revivals and sequels and movies and spinoffs from the original have all presented themselves as being continuations of the same reality rather than alternate versions. TNG, as I've mentioned before, may have been intended by Roddenberry as a soft reboot, selective about what it acknowledged from TOS and what it overwrote, but later producers tied it and its spinoffs more directly to the original. So unlike, say, Batman or Godzilla fans, we just haven't had the opportunity to see a completely separate Trek continuity, and thus the idea is unfamiliar.


Nothing's getting erased, don't worry. The novels already spelled out the black hole/AU concept in the first DTI novel.

In fact, in Watching the Clock I offered two physical explanations for why the timelines would continue to coexist. One was the idea that a one-way time travel wouldn't mutually entangle the timelines enough to bring about quantum convergence. The other was that if the geometry of spacetime were sufficiently altered by, say, the destruction of a planet, then the two timelines would no longer align in space sufficiently to allow their particles to converge. In effect, one would be "bent" out of shape so that the two timelines could no longer "fit together" well enough to merge. Which sounds silly when I put it that way, but there's solid physics behind it.
 
As fun as the DTI novels were Christopher I find that it's too much attempting to fix something that isn't really broken. The more rules you establish for why something worked one way on this occasion and why it worked that one on another, the more people will be looking for loopholes or situations that don't work according to what you've set out.

For me, it's simply this: Star Trek consists of a infinite number of parallel universe and like parallel lines, they don't intersect. In order to get from one to the other you need a line that runs between the two. If, like in Mirror Mirror, the connection is at 90 degrees then you end up in a different reality but at the same time. If the connecting line angles forward or backwards, you end up in the alternates future or past.

If something contradicts what was previously known as a fact then we're looking at a slightly different reality. In this way the TV shows, movies, books, comics, etc can all happily co-exist without wondering which one is the "real" one. Which one is real or Prime? Whichever one you feel most comfortable with.

There's noting in ST09 that says that the universe OldSpock came from doesn't exist but there's nothing that says that it does. The writers can speculate or give their opinions but until there's something on the screen (or page) that says otherwise we're free to interpret it however we like. Roddenberry felt one way. Berman felt another. Abrams yet another. And whover comes after Abrams will have their own ideas too. In the end, Star Treks; reality is whatever you fit together for yourself. There's too many stories that contradict each other for EVERYTHING to fit.

You may not agree with my vision of the Trek multiverse but the cool thing about it is that it includes yours. And everyone else's too.
 
^It sounds to me as if it's your own preconceptions about how Trek's world works that are the cause of your issues with the DTI books.
 
But, whatever. I'm getting tired of arguing the same damn point over and over. I just hate for the novels to reach 2387 and see everything that has come before erased simply because the writers are beholden to follow the onscreen policy.
Nothing's getting erased, don't worry. The novels already spelled out the black hole/AU concept in the first DTI novel.

I'm not worried. Let what's gonna happen, happen.:shrug:
 
As fun as the DTI novels were Christopher I find that it's too much attempting to fix something that isn't really broken. The more rules you establish for why something worked one way on this occasion and why it worked that one on another, the more people will be looking for loopholes or situations that don't work according to what you've set out.

For me, it's simply this: Star Trek consists of a infinite number of parallel universe and like parallel lines, they don't intersect. In order to get from one to the other you need a line that runs between the two. If, like in Mirror Mirror, the connection is at 90 degrees then you end up in a different reality but at the same time. If the connecting line angles forward or backwards, you end up in the alternates future or past.

If something contradicts what was previously known as a fact then we're looking at a slightly different reality. In this way the TV shows, movies, books, comics, etc can all happily co-exist without wondering which one is the "real" one. Which one is real or Prime? Whichever one you feel most comfortable with.

There's noting in ST09 that says that the universe OldSpock came from doesn't exist but there's nothing that says that it does. The writers can speculate or give their opinions but until there's something on the screen (or page) that says otherwise we're free to interpret it however we like. Roddenberry felt one way. Berman felt another. Abrams yet another. And whover comes after Abrams will have their own ideas too. In the end, Star Treks; reality is whatever you fit together for yourself. There's too many stories that contradict each other for EVERYTHING to fit.

You may not agree with my vision of the Trek multiverse but the cool thing about it is that it includes yours. And everyone else's too.

Well said. And better than I did it, too.
 
Star Trek consists of a infinite number of parallel universe and like parallel lines, they don't intersect.

If that's true, how do you explain the seeming overlap of realities observed in so many episodes throughout Star Trek?

RPJOB said:
Which one is real or Prime? Whichever one you feel most comfortable with.

That's funny. I thought you said earlier that was no such thing as a prime universe.

RPJOB said:
There's noting in ST09 that says that the universe OldSpock came from doesn't exist but there's nothing that says that it does.

That Spock exists at all is a good indication that the universe from which he came existed, too. He couldn't have come from nothing.

--Sran
 
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