Universal Translator

[asdf1]

One of the things that always got to me was the fact that every species actually looked like they were speaking english, rather than some very bad dubbing. Although, the translators could have some sort of holo-emitter that makes it look like they are speaking english. Another theory is that there is some form of drug that is released to make it look like it as well

Another thing is that on Klingon ships they spoke english. We could say that the translator did its job here, but then why do they shout something in Klingon all the time as well. Surely the Federation hasn't influenced the Klingons that much to make them speak their language all the time.

 

[T'Ressa Dax]

I prefer to pretend we're watching translated versions of what happened on the Klingon ships, among others. And maybe some of it's just untranslatable... Mostly I just don't think about it anymore.

 

[Praetor]

Dramatic license. If the universal translator works the way it's said to, then everyone would still look like they're speaking whatever language they're speaking, regardless of what the listener heard, and everyone would speak whatever language they wanted to on their own ships.

 

[Kaziarl]

I think they look like they are speaking english for simplicity. Having everyone act like they are speaking something else while hearing english takes a lot more coordination. That and I always thought those dubbed foreign films were distracting, maybe the producers thought the same thing.

One thing I want to know, the first mention of the UT that I remember was that lightsaber hilt looking thing from TOS. On the planet where they found Cochrene. And I thought spock built it there. So I was a little confused about it showing up on enterprise. Did spock just improve it?

 

[Ghostface1701]

Another thing is that on Klingon ships they spoke english. We could say that the translator did its job here, but then why do they shout something in Klingon all the time as well. Surely the Federation hasn't influenced the Klingons that much to make them speak their language all the time.

I think it was the Klingon Dictionary that said that Klingon senior officers sometimes spoke English as a sign of superiority over the lower ranks. Notice also in TSFS that Kruge speaks English to Maltz when secretly discussing his plans regarding Genesis.

The Klingons seem to have a high regard for the English language, judging by how quickly they claimed Shakespeare as one of their own.

 

[Albertese]

As I recall from "Metamorphosis" (and it's been a long time since I saw it) Spock didn't do anything to it other than maybe tweak it to read the Companion's wierdo signal more clearly. It worked by reading neural signals and interpreting them into spoken English with a gender appropriate voice. The brain-waves theory seems to have been quietly dismissed from the current ideas of how it's supposed to work. (at least there's no mention of them as I recall from the various tech manuals.) Now they seem to work by somehow translating a phrase in real time by filtering it through a computer program. This, of course, is absurd since the very nature of differing languages means the ideas are not expressed in one sequence meaning that a real time translation would be quite impossible. Especially give all the idioms and nuances in every language. The task is quite unbelievable. I choose to ignore i when I watch Star Trek.

I prefer the Star Wars way of just having everyone either speak their own language and someone else can understand, or have C3P-O explain what's going on. Or even the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy way which involves putting a psychic parasite called a bablefish into your ear which can take what you hear and instantly convert into the language you know best as a by-product of it's psychic digestion process. Neat.

--Alex

 

[Longinus]

I saw a film adaptation of "Julius Ceasar" recently on TV. Believe or not, they spoke English, even they were supposed to be ancient Romans! Also, in "the Hunt for Red October" Russian submarine crew switches to English after few sentences! Astonishing!

 

[Kaziarl]

I saw a film adaptation of "Julius Ceasar" recently on TV. Believe or not, they spoke English, even they were supposed to be ancient Romans! Also, in "the Hunt for Red October" Russian submarine crew switches to English after few sentences! Astonishing!

Well thats the TV explanation, but part of the reason the Trek Tech forum is here is to talk about how the stuff we see might work.

 

[Longinus]

Well thats the TV explanation, but part of the reason the Trek Tech forum is here is to talk about how the stuff we see might work.

Yeah, but Klingons on a Klingon ship do not speak English any more that Russians speak English on Red October.

 

[Praetor]

It seems odd that the Klingons would hold such a high reverence for English if they bothered to translate Shakespeare into Klingonese. It struck more as being more like propaganda - like the Soviets claiming to have invented, well, everything.

I've always thought it would have made more sense for the TNG-era UT to be an earplug similar to the babelfish.

 

[Myasishchev]

I don't like the brainwaves operating principle. If it can suss meaning from the brain's electromagnetic signals, that's not translation, it's telepathy. And clearly this is beyond even the 24th century's technological prowess. Perhaps it works best with a creature whose language must be electromagnetic in form in the first place, like the Companion.

I do wonder if English is a lingua franca of the Federation, or if the ubiquity of translator devices renders such a concept meaningless. For example, does Worf speak English, or does only he speak Klingonese, or even Ukrainian?

On the other hand, we have no evidence of visual universal translators, so a familiarity with English might be rather useful in Starfleet.

 

[Kaziarl]

Well thats the TV explanation, but part of the reason the Trek Tech forum is here is to talk about how the stuff we see might work.

Yeah, but Klingons on a Klingon ship do not speak English any more that Russians speak English on Red October.

I look at it more like certain words are hard to translate. Qa'pla for example is accepted by most to meen success. But in a broader sense it could be success, victory, honor, glory, so it's hard to get in a single translated word. Here on earth we run accross this problem. I think the biggest one is the bible. The original latin translation of it has Logos, from which we translate it into Word. In the beginning there was the WORD. But Logos can mean word, thought, or idea. And although they can be considered similiar, they take the translation in a different direction depending on which you choose to use.

 

[Kaziarl]

I don't like the brainwaves operating principle. If it can suss meaning from the brain's electromagnetic signals, that's not translation, it's telepathy. And clearly this is beyond even the 24th century's technological prowess. Perhaps it works best with a creature whose language must be electromagnetic in form in the first place, like the Companion.

I do wonder if English is a lingua franca of the Federation, or if the ubiquity of translator devices renders such a concept meaningless. For example, does Worf speak English, or does only he speak Klingonese, or even Ukrainian?

On the other hand, we have no evidence of visual universal translators, so a familiarity with English might be rather useful in Starfleet.

In the episode The 37s, Janeway indicated that the translator was in the combadge. I don't know if it was said elsewhere, but thats the one I remember

 

[Praetor]

But didn't it only read the Companion's neuro-waves (and translate back) in 'Metamorphosis' because the Companion didn't speak to start with? Wasn't that the point of Spock's modifications? I've always thought for everyone else it just read and translated actual speech, not brainwaves.

And of course Worf speaks Ukrainian.

 

[Timo]

If the universal translator works the way it's said to, then everyone would still look like they're speaking whatever language they're speaking

But the thing is, there is no official "way it's said to". No onscreen source has described the principle of operation yet.

A simple explanation presents itself, IMHO: the UT does not consist of a microphone/computer/loudspeaker combo, but rather consists of an ear/computer/brain combo. That is, the UT intercepts the neural output of our ears, translates that, and feeds it onwards to our brains; possibly it also intercepts the neural output of our eyes, translates that, and feeds it onwards to our brains.

Thus, we hear the alien language; the computer in the UT translates that, and fools our brains into thinking that the translation is what we heard; and then our brain accepts that translation as if it had been spoken by those alien lips. At which point the brain, clever and practical as it is, either fools itself into thinking that the lips are in synch - or is fed a translated lip movement sensation by the UT.

The important thing to realize is that the camera is also equipped with the UT. We're not some 21st century, UT-less people sitting in the same room with these future people who have UTs. We're UT-equipped people ourselves.

If it can suss meaning from the brain's electromagnetic signals, that's not translation, it's telepathy.

Bullshit. Neural EM signals are no more "supernatural" than sound waves. There's no fundamental difference there; in fact, neural signals probably have less noise and less ambiguity than audio signals. To say that the UT couldn't translate brain signals is akin to saying that it couldn't translate the electrical impulses coming from a microphone!

In the episode The 37s, Janeway indicated that the translator was in the combadge.

It's probably both there AND in a brain implant. In "Basics", removal of the badges means our heroes cannot learn new languages (such as that of the natives on the volcano planet), but they can still understand alien languages the UT has already familiarized itself with: Janeway, Kes, Neelix and Culluhall understand each other without the badges.

So the badge is probably just a booster processor for assimilating new languages, and the implants handle a preprogrammed set of languages in all conditions.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JNG]

I think it cannot function as shown, but that is a pedantic concern, similar to pointing out that you couldn't hear a cool sound when the ship went to warp. How we see it is for our convenience; how it is experienced by the Trek characters to enable their adventures is an interesting Trek Tech question.

However, I've never been able to come up with a good way to rationalize stuff like "Face of the Enemy" using the Universal Translator. It just couldn't reach into Troi's throat with a force field and jam the non-Romulan sounds she was making as it simultaneously broadcast translations from...somewhere.

It just isn't reasonable that makeup is sufficient to infiltrate an alien culture and impersonate one of its intelligence agents! Yikes. I really wish there had been a better attempt at an explanation, like a telepathic "dump" of the language that would last only temporarily (scientifically just as empty, but at least already part of the setting), or the thing with an RNA injection that some of the novels tried to do (based on a now-discredited scientific theory, but a pretty good try at the time).

Above, Timo has suggested something that might work and of which Trek technology is probably capable, at least, but it heads in an almost Borg-like direction and seems to suggest an incredibly advanced ability of Trek tech to decode and interact with the electrical signals that represent brain activity...I still don't know how it would jam the actual sounds made by the foreign speech, or if electronic brain jamming of my senses would be something I'd sign on for. Aside from the brain waves mention in "Metamorphosis," the only thing I can think of pointing at this territory is the "senceiver" implant Kirk has in the TMP novelization (with which he...watches the opening scenes of the movie).

 

[Albertese]

...

A simple explanation presents itself, IMHO: the UT does not consist of a microphone/computer/loudspeaker combo, but rather consists of an ear/computer/brain combo. That is, the UT intercepts the neural output of our ears, translates that, and feeds it onwards to our brains; possibly it also intercepts the neural output of our eyes, translates that, and feeds it onwards to our brains.

Thus, we hear the alien language; the computer in the UT translates that, and fools our brains into thinking that the translation is what we heard; and then our brain accepts that translation as if it had been spoken by those alien lips. At which point the brain, clever and practical as it is, either fools itself into thinking that the lips are in synch - or is fed a translated lip movement sensation by the UT.

...

Timo Saloniemi

Um, okay. and "Little Green Men" would tend to support this, as Rom fixes the UT in Quarks ears so he can talk to the US Army guys in New Mexico. But I still wonder how that works to make you understandable to others. Sure there's a computer and translator in your ear, but how does General Cigar Dude know a frakking thing you are saying?

 

[Timo]

One might decide to believe in two models of the UT: a receiver-only thing, requiring both sides of a conversation to have one, or a full Babel Fish, hooked to the language center of your brain and translating both the incoming and outgoing signals.

The Ferengi, being born and bred traders, might opt for the two-way model, but most other species might shy away from it because it involves a deeper level of brain manipulation and penetrative surgery (at least if you aren't a Ferengi whose brain is easily accessed through the ear).

The alternative is that Quark, having dealt with the Feds for the past few years, did know how to speak English... He just didn't remember that particular language all that well. But hearing one's own words through one's own UT is a wonderful educational aid!

On that vein, I'm sure the brain does most of the translating anyway, with the UT just providing helpful hints. The device need not give fluent command of a language - but only the illusion of one, with the brain filling out the gaps easily enough. A complete outsider, lacking a UT altogether, might realize that both parties are hearing and speaking Pidgin at best...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[asdf1]

I do wonder if English is a lingua franca of the Federation, or if the ubiquity of translator devices renders such a concept meaningless. For example, does Worf speak English, or does only he speak Klingonese, or even Ukrainian?

On the other hand, we have no evidence of visual universal translators, so a familiarity with English might be rather useful in Starfleet.

Worf spoke English, or as its known in Trek, Federation Standard. I think every Fed citizen had to be fluent in this, because humans are the supreme race

 

[Myasishchev]

If it can suss meaning from the brain's electromagnetic signals, that's not translation, it's telepathy.

Bullshit. Neural EM signals are no more "supernatural" than sound waves. There's no fundamental difference there; in fact, neural signals probably have less noise and less ambiguity than audio signals. To say that the UT couldn't translate brain signals is akin to saying that it couldn't translate the electrical impulses coming from a microphone!

Timo, I'm not arguing that it couldn't work, and I don't know why you've put "supernatural" in quotes as if that was inherent in my claim. I suspect we'll have the functional equivalent of telepathy a long time before we surpass the speed of light.

What I am arguing is that if it does work, then everyone is using the equivalent of a Romulan mind probe at all times. If conscious thought can be read, it need not be vocalized to be heard. It turns every Federation citizen into a better-adjusted Borg.

This is an application that was obviously not intended by the writers, but it follows inexorably if we accept a mind-reading function to the UT.