• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

United Federation of Planets=European Union?

However, the political system of the EU is not that complicated compared to Germany's for instance. Germany has a president, a chancellor who leads the federal cabinet and two legislative bodies (Bundestag, Bundesrat), each headed by a president of its own.

So, just like the EU has several "presidents" (or at least people who bear that title), Germany has three "presidents" and a Chancellor.

You're getting too caught up in the presence of the word "president." The president of a legislative body is just the presiding officer of that body and is in no way a head of state or head of government; the president of the state is the president of the entire state, and is either the head of state, head of government, or both. The United States Senate has a President and a President Pro Tempore, but that doesn't mean the United States has three presidents -- there's only one President of the United States. And there's only one Federal President of Germany.

But as for the original question: The main difference between the Federation and the EU is that the EU's "common" foreign and defense policy exists only on paper for the most part. Each member state is very adamant about its national sovereignty in those fields and as a result everybody does his own thing here.

Exactly. The European Union is modeled on how states function, but it is not yet a state in its own right.

You won't have a chance if we get socialized medicine.

Considering that the countries with socialized medicine have generally better health outcomes than the U.S., I'm skeptical of that assertion.
 
You're getting too caught up in the presence of the word "president."

I'm not. Mr. Laser Beam is.



The president of a legislative body is just the presiding officer of that body and is in no way a head of state or head of government; the president of the state is the president of the entire state, and is either the head of state, head of government, or both. The United States Senate has a President and a President Pro Tempore, but that doesn't mean the United States has three presidents -- there's only one President of the United States. And there's only one Federal President of Germany.

Yes, that's basically what I tried to say.
 
It is bull shit, I have to deal with the US version of craptastic socialized medicine, the VA. It plain and simple sucks, anywhere the gubment sticks it's fingers where it shouldn't be is a prescription for disaster. I will call anyone and everyone out on their crap about their socialized meds. Sure there are good stories in every program, jut like there are bad ones. However the cost in money, time, lives and social costs is far too high.
 
Then it's the US' cluelesness that's the problem, not socialized medicine per se. As Nevyn said, it works well elsewhere.
 
This will end well.

And considering that you, NIUPonyBoy, were the first one to bring up the topic of socialized medicine and to claim that it is a bad thing, the impetus is on you to prove your thesis. You are, after all, the one who first made a claim, not others; you must prove your claim.
 
/grunching

I always thought the UFP was more like America's federal system than the EU, myself. Maybe with a bit more state [planetary] autonomy.
 
Then it's the US' cluelesness that's the problem, not socialized medicine per se. As Nevyn said, it works well elsewhere.

Prove it.

This will end well.

And considering that you, NIUPonyBoy, were the first one to bring up the topic of socialized medicine and to claim that it is a bad thing, the impetus is on you to prove your thesis. You are, after all, the one who first made a claim, not others; you must prove your claim.
Sorry to backseat mod here, guys, but if you really think this conversation is that important, could you continue it elsewhere? The effectiveness of socialized medicine has nothing to do with how much influence the European Union might have had on the development of the Federation government.

As for the topic, as Mr. Laser Beam pointed out, the United Earth government seemed to be a parliamentary republic with a Prime Minister (though I don't ever remember seeing or hearing about a President), which makes me wonder how they decided to move away from that and use a presidential system for the Federation government.
 
as Mr. Laser Beam pointed out, the United Earth government seemed to be a parliamentary republic with a Prime Minister (though I don't ever remember seeing or hearing about a President)

United Earth's President, Lydia Littlejohn, appeared in Starfleet: Year One. At first, one might dismiss that as apocryphal since so much of it conflicts with ENT and the novels' current continuity, but she also appears in at least one SCE story (and in The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing, though she's not yet President there), so that pretty much settles that.

And my confusion about the European Union isn't because of how many people are called 'president', but the fact that EU has so many different bureaucracies to it, it's hard to make out which organization is for what purpose. It's not a true state, as has already been pointed out. But I'm sure it will be.
 
Ah, I never read Starfleet: Year One, and I haven't read any SCE stories either.

Thanks for the info. :techman:
 
Apart from institutional similarities it seems to me that the political climate of Europe is more in line with that of the federation - at least more so than US politics (I don't mean to start a political debate - I just needed something to compare with). Without going into specifics the more social liberal political climate (ok, I know it's quite hard to do such a generalization) feels at least on the right track to what I see in trek.
 
So far (unless I've missed something), this discussion has been exclusively about the United Federation of Planets as described in ST:TNG and its spinoffs, the Trek movies, and various Trek novels. Nobody has so much as mentioned the original series, in which the Federation was presented only in the vaguest of terms.

Watching TOS back in the 1960s, I was always under the impression that, outside of its authority over a quasi-military policing force in the form of Starfleet, the Federation was a rather weak and ineffectual organization -- more along the lines of the United Nations than the European Union (which, of course, at that time didn't yet exist). Federation officials were often depicted as stuffy, self-important bureaucrats whose primary function was to be a thorn in Captain Kirk's side. And the main job of Federation diplomats seemed to be attempting to prevent interplanetary wars -- with only occasional success.

Gene Roddenberry had a tough enough time just selling the idea of a future United Earth to TV network executives. IIRC, the UFP didn't appear at all until the show's second season.
 
Okay this is how it goes:

Earth = America
Federation = UN
Starfleet = US military (note how the inhabitants of Earth are the ones who mainly do the fighting for the Federation, the rest of the member planets being pretty much useless when the Klingons are kickin' up shit)

Star Trek is the story of how America took over Earth and now is in the process of taking over the whole galaxy in a cosmic romp of manifest destiny. The Dominion and the Borg are merely speed bumps along the way.

For one thing, the fundamental function of the European Union is to try to end the problem of intra-European wars; whatever else its faults or failures, it's made the idea of an intra-European war virtually unthinkable -- the idea of France, Britain, or Germany going to war with one-another again is today absolutely absurd

It was absurd long before the EU existed. You got the causality backwards - the fact that it was absurd is why the EU could exist. And the EU hasn't done much to stop the Balkans from exploding.

Watching TOS back in the 1960s, I was always under the impression that, outside of its authority over a quasi-military policing force in the form of Starfleet, the Federation was a rather weak and ineffectual organization -- more along the lines of the United Nations than the European Union (which, of course, at that time didn't yet exist).

Yeah I don't think Roddenberry was that big of a visionary. How could he have had the EU in mind when he originally created the UFP? It was the UN, pure and simple, with a beefed up military arm that Roddenberry no doubt envisioned being more along the lines of the US military than the ineffectual smurfs of the UN.
 
So far (unless I've missed something), this discussion has been exclusively about the United Federation of Planets as described in ST:TNG and its spinoffs, the Trek movies, and various Trek novels. Nobody has so much as mentioned the original series, in which the Federation was presented only in the vaguest of terms.

Watching TOS back in the 1960s, I was always under the impression that, outside of its authority over a quasi-military policing force in the form of Starfleet, the Federation was a rather weak and ineffectual organization -- more along the lines of the United Nations than the European Union (which, of course, at that time didn't yet exist). Federation officials were often depicted as stuffy, self-important bureaucrats whose primary function was to be a thorn in Captain Kirk's side. And the main job of Federation diplomats seemed to be attempting to prevent interplanetary wars -- with only occasional success.

I don't think that the Federation of the TOS era is quite as weak as you're characterizing it as -- and the Federation Starfleet is an out-and-out military, not a quasi-military -- but I think you bring up a very good point! The Federation during the time of TOS seems to be less powerful, both de jure and de facto, than it does during the TNG era. In "Journey to Babel," for instance, the Federation is on the verge of civil war over the issue of whether or not to admit Coridan as a Federation Member because some Federation Members will lose out on their ability to economically exploit Coridan for its dilithium (including a founding member, Tellar, which has gone so far as to claim Coridan as a part of its territory).

Even in TOS, though, we see major indications of the powers of a state being exercised by the Federation. "Errand of Mercy" features the Federation Council deciding to go to war with the Klingon Empire, for instance -- a major power of state, and there's no evidence the Council consulted the Member State governments to make the decision.

I also think that the fact that the Federation has had its Starfleet from the very beginning is a huge difference between the U.F.P. and the United Nations, though. The United Nations, after all, remains an intergovernmental organization that is only able to operate at the whim of its member states. Given different circumstances, it could have evolved into genuine statehood, but it has not, and the lack of a military is an important difference.

Ultimately, I would interpret the Federation's apparent relative weaknesses during the TOS era as being part of the Federation's process of making de facto its de jure status as an interstellar state. Even if it was legally a state in its own right upon its founding, it would almost certainly have had to undergo a long process of actually, practically, accruing the powers of a state that it would initially possess only on paper.

Gene Roddenberry had a tough enough time just selling the idea of a future United Earth to TV network executives. IIRC, the UFP didn't appear at all until the show's second season.

The Federation was first mentioned as "the Federation" in "Arena" (episode 19 of Season One) and was first called by its full name, "the United Federation of Planets," in "A Taste of Armageddon" (episode 23 of Season One). Before that, the Enterprise was described as a United Earth ship in "The Corbomite Maneuver" (episode 2); when the subsequent series assumed that the Federation had existed prior to "Arena" (which TNG's "The Outcast" and ENT's "Zero Hour" did in establishing the Federation to have been founded in 2161), they were pretty much retconning the Enterprise into having always been a Federation starship rather than a United Earth starship.

As for the topic, as Mr. Laser Beam pointed out, the United Earth government seemed to be a parliamentary republic with a Prime Minister (though I don't ever remember seeing or hearing about a President),

I would point out that while I have no problem with the idea of using info from the novels -- including the United Earth President, United Earth Prime Minister, and United Earth Parliament -- none of that has been established in the canon. The most that was established in the canon was when ENT's "Demons"/"Terra Prime" established that Nathan Samuels's title in the United Earth government was "Minister." This implies a parliamentary system, but that's as far as it goes. Again, I'm not saying that we shouldn't include info from the novels, just that we should remember where that data came from.

which makes me wonder how they decided to move away from that and use a presidential system for the Federation government.

Well, why would the United Earth system be more likely than any other to influence the Federation's system? After all, United Earth was only one of the Federation's founding states. There's also Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar (and, if you go by the novels, the recently-independent former U.E. colony of Alpha Centauri), and each of these other governments would be just as likely to influence the Federation's eventual shape as United Earth's.

For some insight, the novels have established the following tidbits about these other Member governments:

* The Andorian Empire is established in Andor: Paradigm by Heather Jarman to be a constitutional monarchy, with a deliberately empty Throne left as the legal head of state, and a Chancellor (established in ENT's "The Aenar") serving as head of government. The Andorian legislature is the Parliament Andoria, and the Federation Councillor from Andor is determined on the basis of which party has a majority in the Parliament Andoria. The capital city is Laikan.

* The Confederacy of Vulcan's system is still largely unexplored, but The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing establishes that it is headed by the Administrator of the Confederacy of Vulcan, who seems to be a prime ministerial-like head of government, working with the Vulcan Council (established in ENT's "These Are the Voyages...") as the legislature. The capital city if ShiKahr.

* The United Planets of Tellar's system is almost completely unexplored as of yet.

* The novel The Next Generation: Losing the Peace established that Alpha Centauri is headed by an elected Governor, who has the ability to schedule plebiscites for issues he or she deems important to the populace. The capital city is New Samarkan on Centauri III.

Meanwhile, the novels A Time for War, A Time for Peace, Articles of the Federation, and Bajor: Fragments and Omens establish that the Federation Council consists of one Councillor from each Member State, determined in whatever manner that Member State so chooses; Betazed's is popularly elected, while Bajor's is appointed by the First Minister after confirmation from the Chamber of Ministers, and Andor's is determined by parliamentary majority. The President is established to be popularly elected to a potentially unlimited number of four-year terms (each election takes over a week to fully tabulate by multiple independent auditing firms).

The relationship between the President and the Council is depicted as being more akin to that of a Prime Minister to a Parliament in some ways, though, because the President is required to serve as the presiding officer of full sessions of the Federation Council unless off-planet, and is required to nominate individual Councillors to serve on the Council's committees and sub-committees with the full Council's ratification. The President usually presides over key committees, such as the Security Council, and works closely with the relevant committees on any given issue. But the President also is ultimately the person in charge of foreign policy and has numerous areas under his/her exclusive jurisdiction, including the appointment of ambassadors, negotiation of foreign treaties, etc. -- the President is far more than just the Council's presiding officer.

So while the Federation President remains the head of government and head of state, in some ways, the Federation government is a sort of hybrid of the presidential and parliamentary systems (but isn't based on the French semi-presidential system, either).

It does seem that way. However, while the Federation has many characteristics of a federal state, there are some things that don't fit - like having Vulcan Ambassadors to Earth, Earth Ambassadors to Vulcan, etc. You wouldn't normally have ambassadors or need to establish diplomatic relations between federal constituents, unless they aren't really federal constituents but confederate sovereign states.

That's a valid question to bring up. Before ST09, I would have pointed out that there's some question as to whether or not there actually is a Vulcan Ambassador to United Earth -- the Babel Conference in "Journey to Babel" is explicitly described as convening because the Federation is on the verge of civil war, and as such the presence of ambassadors cannot be taken as an indication of how the Federation normally functions; and we never do find out what Sarek's full legal title is, as he's only ever referred to as "the Vulcan Ambassador" in the films -- but ST09 explicitly establishes Sarek to have been Vulcan Ambassador to Earth.

I'm not convinced that this is an indication that Federation Member States are confederated sovereign states, though -- if that were so, the Federation President would not be able to place Federation Member worlds under states of emergency (de facto martial law) as President Jaresh-Inyo does in DS9's "Homefront."

We have a couple of different possibilities for interpreting Sarek's -- or at least nuSarek's -- position as Vulcan Ambassador to Earth.

1. We might assume that this position only exists in the Abramsverse timeline, but I think this is unlikely.

2. We might see this as an indication that Federation Member States retain their sovereignty and that the U.F.P. is more of an alliance than a state in its own right.

3. We might see this as an indication that the Federation is a state but that its member states retain more autonomy than presently exists in most federal states, possessing some sort of legal authority to conduct diplomatic relations amongst themselves under the larger jurisdiction of the Federation government.

4. We might view the positions of ambassadors from one Member State to another as mere institutional inertia with no real power or relevancy upon the Federation's founding.

5. We might view it as being a function of the sheer size of the Federation and distance between Member worlds -- the Federation is simply too large for the Federation government to supervise all intra-Federation issues and it needs to delegate certain intra-Federation issues to the Member States to deal with themselves in order to function on the larger galactic stage.

6. We might view those ambassadorial positions as an indication of the Federation's gradual evolution from de facto alliance/I.G.O. to de facto state, with those positions eventually being eliminated upon greater legal consolidation of the Federation's authority.

I'm inclined to view it as a combination of 3 and 5, and possibly 6. I do think it's interesting to note that there's no canonical indication of there being intra-Federation ambassadors in TNG-era stories (though the novel Hollow Men by Una McCormack did establish that there remains an Embassy of Alpha Centauri in London, and Bajor: Fragments and Omens established that there remained a Bajoran Embassy on Earth after Bajor's entry into the U.F.P., where the Federation Councillor from Bajor was working).

Besides, Memory Alpha says that Federation members are free to use different economic models. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/United_Federation_of_Planets This certainly sounds closer to confederation than a federation, whatever its name may be.

Memory Alpha is speculating when it says that. The presence of the Bank of Bolias is not an indication that Federation members can pick their own economic systems, because there are numerous contradictions in Star Trek about how the Federation economy works. Yeah, Star Trek: First Contact and "The Neutral Zone" claim that they don't use money, but then episodes like "Journey to Babel," "Mudd's Women," "Author, Author," "Little Green Men," "The Gift," "The Magnificent Ferengi," and "The Price" establish that money still exists in the Federation.
 
Perhaps the position of Vulcan Ambassador to Earth is a relic of the pre-Federation Era.
 
Even in TOS, though, we see major indications of the powers of a state being exercised by the Federation. "Errand of Mercy" features the Federation Council deciding to go to war with the Klingon Empire, for instance -- a major power of state, and there's no evidence the Council consulted the Member State governments to make the decision.

But the Council is composed of the representatives of the member governments, so indirectly the member worlds authorised the war.

I also think that the fact that the Federation has had its Starfleet from the very beginning is a huge difference between the U.F.P. and the United Nations, though. The United Nations, after all, remains an intergovernmental organization that is only able to operate at the whim of its member states. Given different circumstances, it could have evolved into genuine statehood, but it has not, and the lack of a military is an important difference.

The Federation was first mentioned as "the Federation" in "Arena" (episode 19 of Season One) and was first called by its full name, "the United Federation of Planets," in "A Taste of Armageddon" (episode 23 of Season One). Before that, the Enterprise was described as a United Earth ship in "The Corbomite Maneuver" (episode 2); when the subsequent series assumed that the Federation had existed prior to "Arena" (which TNG's "The Outcast" and ENT's "Zero Hour" did in establishing the Federation to have been founded in 2161), they were pretty much retconning the Enterprise into having always been a Federation starship rather than a United Earth starship.
Or maybe the Federation Fleet at the time was composed of the joint fleets of the member worlds? A bit like NATO. That would allow Enterprise to be both UESPA ship and Starfleet ship.

I'm inclined to view it as a combination of 3 and 5, and possibly 6. I do think it's interesting to note that there's no canonical indication of there being intra-Federation ambassadors in TNG-era stories (though the novel Hollow Men by Una McCormack did establish that there remains an Embassy of Alpha Centauri in London, and Bajor: Fragments and Omens established that there remained a Bajoran Embassy on Earth after Bajor's entry into the U.F.P., where the Federation Councillor from Bajor was working).
Could Ambassador be just an another name for an Councillor? Maybe Sarek was Vulcan's representative at the Federation Council.
 
Even in TOS, though, we see major indications of the powers of a state being exercised by the Federation. "Errand of Mercy" features the Federation Council deciding to go to war with the Klingon Empire, for instance -- a major power of state, and there's no evidence the Council consulted the Member State governments to make the decision.

But the Council is composed of the representatives of the member governments, so indirectly the member worlds authorised the war.

Actually, we don't know that. Canonically, it has never been established how Federation Councillors are chosen, or for whom, exactly, they work. ("Journey to Babel" featured a conference of ambassadors of Federation Member States who clearly obeyed the instructions of their Member governments, but "Journey to Babel" made it clear that the Babel Conference was an extraordinary situation brought about by the Federation's being near a state of civil war; it does not tell us how the Federation Council itself normally functions.)

So the question ultimately becomes, do Federation Councillors represent their Member governments (in the same way that Permanent Representatives to the United Nations represent their governments) or do Federation Councillors represent the peoples of their Member States (in the same way that, for instance, United States Senators represent the people of their state rather than the state governments)?

Canonically, we don't know. And in terms of the novels, the implication seems to be that it's a bit mixed. Each Member State determines for itself how its Federation Councillor is chosen. So if the Federation Councillor from Bajor is chosen by the First Minister, that raises the question of whether or not the First Minister can fire him/her if she/he votes in Council in a way the First Minister doesn't want him/her to. The novels do seem to establish that Federation Councillors, even if they get their jobs through the Member State government, ultimately do not actually work for that government and do not represent that government, but the people of that government's Member State -- the implication seems to be that a Federation Councillor cannot be fired/recalled/whatever by the Member State government if he/she does something the Member government doesn't like. But, of course, the novels are not canonical, so take that information as you will.

I also think that the fact that the Federation has had its Starfleet from the very beginning is a huge difference between the U.F.P. and the United Nations, though. The United Nations, after all, remains an intergovernmental organization that is only able to operate at the whim of its member states. Given different circumstances, it could have evolved into genuine statehood, but it has not, and the lack of a military is an important difference.

The Federation was first mentioned as "the Federation" in "Arena" (episode 19 of Season One) and was first called by its full name, "the United Federation of Planets," in "A Taste of Armageddon" (episode 23 of Season One). Before that, the Enterprise was described as a United Earth ship in "The Corbomite Maneuver" (episode 2); when the subsequent series assumed that the Federation had existed prior to "Arena" (which TNG's "The Outcast" and ENT's "Zero Hour" did in establishing the Federation to have been founded in 2161), they were pretty much retconning the Enterprise into having always been a Federation starship rather than a United Earth starship.

Or maybe the Federation Fleet at the time was composed of the joint fleets of the member worlds? A bit like NATO. That would allow Enterprise to be both UESPA ship and Starfleet ship.

The problem with this is that the Federation Starfleet is implied to have been created in 2161 along with the Federation because that's the year Starfleet Academy was founded. Then there's the question of why the U.S.S. Intrepid, a Constitution-class ship, would have an almost entirely Vulcan crew if Constitutions like the Enterprise are UESPA designs rather than Vulcan designs; if we assume that there's no N.A.T.O.-ish divisions (which is consistent with the statist powers the Federation has been established to possess), this paradox disappears.

For my money, we should accept it as the retcon it is and let it be.

I'm inclined to view it as a combination of 3 and 5, and possibly 6. I do think it's interesting to note that there's no canonical indication of there being intra-Federation ambassadors in TNG-era stories (though the novel Hollow Men by Una McCormack did establish that there remains an Embassy of Alpha Centauri in London, and Bajor: Fragments and Omens established that there remained a Bajoran Embassy on Earth after Bajor's entry into the U.F.P., where the Federation Councillor from Bajor was working).

Could Ambassador be just an another name for an Councillor? Maybe Sarek was Vulcan's representative at the Federation Council.

It's a possibility, but why would Sarek call himself the Vulcan Ambassador to Earth rather than the Vulcan Ambassador to the United Federation of Planets? And, frankly, why would they use the term "Ambassador" to describe legislators? Ultimately, there's no evidence that Federation Councillors are styled ambassadors.

For whatever it's worth, Archer's biography screen seen in "In A Mirror, Darkly, Part II" referred to his title as "Federation Councilman" while he was a member of the Federation Council. The novels prefer the term "Councillor."
 
I would point out that while I have no problem with the idea of using info from the novels -- including the United Earth President, United Earth Prime Minister, and United Earth Parliament -- none of that has been established in the canon. The most that was established in the canon was when ENT's "Demons"/"Terra Prime" established that Nathan Samuels's title in the United Earth government was "Minister." This implies a parliamentary system, but that's as far as it goes. Again, I'm not saying that we shouldn't include info from the novels, just that we should remember where that data came from.
True enough, but until/unless the information is contradicted by an on-screen source, the novels are all we have to go on. And since canon is an arbitrary thing anyway, the novels' take on things is better than nothing.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top