United Earth in the Star Trek universe

[Shawnster]

. But how could the laws be "democracy on paper" if they aren't in conflict with what takes place? It looks as if the UFP knows of and condones what is happening, despite some excesses it wasn't aware of.

Timo Saloniemi

Maybe "democracy on paper" wasn't the right word. It could still be like the USA from the latter 1800s to the 1960s (or later). Lofty ideals about equality and even Constitutional amendments supposedly "guaranteeing" equality, but the reality is that various laws and "that's the way we've always done things..." and the rise of the KKK pretty much guaranteeing that those recently freed slaves and their dependents were going to remain separate but equal without truly being equal.

 

[Tenacity]

Well, Ardana was a Federation Member State in season three of TOS, and it had caste-based discrimination. But Kirk and company were very surprised to find this out

The existance of the group call the Disruptor was the only real surprise. They knew there was a class system prior to of their arrival and Spock even knew the name of the lower class.

No, "Attached" is pretty clear: there has to be a global government.

No, Attached makes clear that previous members possessed "unity," and it doesn't sound like even that was strictly speaking a requirement. Beverly's statement indicates that unity refers to the people of a world.

At no point did either Picard or Beverly mention global government.

I mean, seriously. "Rounded up?"

This would get them off the freeway exits with their dripping wet cardboard signs.

But we know the real life reason for why actors, especially brown ones, are still racially paired on ST.

DS9 was produced in the 1990's, what reason are you referring to? Mixed race couples had been on Amercan TV for decades by that time.

At what point do you just let it go?

Did Bashir have any problem with his being accepted at the holographic Alamo? During the Battle of Britain, there were only nine Irish pilots, did this bother O'Brien while he was enjoying killing Germans?

That does raise the question of why the Federation would allow Ardana in ...

Zenite?

The Federation wanted a trade agreement with Ardana, Ardana in return wanted the prestige of a membership in the Federation and access to it's markets, papers were signed.

My understanding is that Ardana had to immediately provide zenite for transport to another Federation member in a time of need.

 

[Nyotarules]

That's an interesting one all right. In his meditative voiceover, Spock reveals he is aware of the class distinctions, and declares them unwise but not illegal. Since this is Spock, we don't learn whether he is surprised by his recent discovery of the class injustice, or just commenting on something he has known for ages.

Soon thereafter, when Droxine and Vanna argue, Kirk appears surprised that the Troglytes don't get to share in the benefits of the society they help support. Spock again mostly just neutrally comments, but then declares "unthinkable" the physical banishment of the Troglytes to the harsh surface.

So we have evidence that the degree of separation between the castes is appalling to our heroes, but none that its very existence would be. And in the end, Kirk is both powerless at and disinterested in changing the state of affairs, and his superiors don't appear to expect that he do something about it, either. To the contrary, Plasus argues his policies and practices enjoy the protection of UFP law that grants him autonomy on such matters. (Or at least immunity against a Starfleet officer trying to interfere, although if a non-Starfleet authority had broader powers, Plasus' attitude would make little sense because surely Kirk would go complain to such an authority to effect the change then.)

Kirk, as usual, resorts to crime and violence to get what he wants. But that's zenite, not democracy. He ultimately washes his hands of the whole affair, and status quo is retained. Were the vile practices on the planet somehow in excess of the laws that the UFP upholds, this would be an unlikely outcome. Were the laws presented to the UFP different from the actual laws in force on Ardana, doubly so. But how could the laws be "democracy on paper" if they aren't in conflict with what takes place? It looks as if the UFP knows of and condones what is happening, despite some excesses it wasn't aware of.

Timo Saloniemi

As in real life politics the Federation turns a blind eye to practices it does not approve of since the planet has a resource that it desperately wants (Saudi Arabia anyone?) OR expecting the Federation of alien peoples to have the same cultural values as 23rd century Earth might be considered arrogant. Or as in my head canon Ardana lied to get in the Federation with the collusion of whatever Federation officials let them in. A bit like Greece cooking the books to join the Euro with the collusion of the EU, and we all know how well that turned out.

 

[Nyotarules]

DS9 was produced in the 1990's, what reason are you referring to? Mixed race couples had been on Amercan TV for decades by that time.

In the 90's mixed race couples on American TV were rare cases, enough to cause media attention. If the first black male Captain of Star Trek had been paired with a white woman, who is not playing an alien, trust me that would garner media attention, especially in the black press. And a lot of it would not be positive. But real life T.V is changing E.g If Scandal was made in the 1990's the real Scandal for the plot would be not only a white, handsome REPUBLICAN President of the USA having an affair but he is having an affair with an obvious looking black woman who does not look like Jennifer Beale, Rashida Jones or even Vanessa Williams. However in the show Olivia's race is almost irrelevant. I think it was mentioned once by Olivia, a reference to Sally Hemming syndrome.

 

[The Wormhole]

No, Attached makes clear that previous members possessed "unity," and it doesn't sound like even that was strictly speaking a requirement. Beverly's statement indicates that unity refers to the people of a world.

At no point did either Picard or Beverly mention global government.

Actually, Earth having a global government is mentioned in the episode's opening scene. A rather infamous, often quoted scene due its mistakenly interpreted implications about Australia.

CRUSHER: Well, think about Earth. What if one of the old nation states, say Australia, had decided not to join the World Government in twenty one fifty?

Let me guess, in your "Head Canon" World Government does not mean global government?

 

[Tenacity]

Actually, Earth having a global government is mentioned in the episode's opening scene

When Beverly brought that up, didn't Picard say that it wasn't a good example of a qualification for Federation entry?

 

[Six of Twelve]

That might have just been Picard's personal opinion, not him stating official Federation policy.

 

[The Wormhole]

When Beverly brought that up, didn't Picard say that it wasn't a good example of a qualification for Federation entry?

The full conversation:

CRUSHER: Are you worried about this mission with the Kes?
PICARD: Not worried exactly. This notion of admitting half of their planet to the Federation while leaving the other half out.
CRUSHER: First of all, the Kes are not half the planet, they're nearly three quarters of it. And the Prytt are not being left out. They themselves simply don't want to have contact with anyone from the outside. not the Federation or anyone else.
PICARD: Every member of the Federation entered as a unified world, and that unity said something about them. That they had resolved certain social and political differences and they were now ready to become part a larger community.
CRUSHER: By all indications, the Kes are a very unified, very progressive people.
PICARD: But the Prytt are not. They are reclusive to the point of xenophobia.
CRUSHER: Well, think about Earth. What if one of the old nation states, say Australia, had decided not to join the World Government in twenty one fifty? Would that have disqualified us as a Federation member?
PICARD: That analogy is not exactly
RIKER [CO]: Riker to Captain.
PICARD: Go ahead, Number One

Admittedly we don't know exactly what Picard was going to say because he was cut off, but I was under the impression he was going to say the analogy didn't exactly related to the situation between the Kes and the Prytt. Regardless they definitely state Earth had a unified World Government, which you originally claimed they didn't.

 

[Tenacity]

Regardless they definitely state Earth had a unified World Government, which you originally claimed they didn't.

Pardon, at no point did either Picard or Beverly mention global government as a requirement to join the Federation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Let me guess, in your "Head Canon" World Government does not mean global government?

What else could it possibly mean? Logically speaking, both of those terms must mean the same thing.

 

[The Old Mixer]

If the first black male Captain of Star Trek had been paired with a white woman, who is not playing an alien, trust me that would garner media attention, especially in the black press.

I've read that Avery Brooks specifically asked for Sisko's love interests to be played by black actresses, so that was his personal preference, not a creative decision made by DS9's showrunners.

 

[Nyotarules]

I've read that Avery Brooks specifically asked for Sisko's love interests to be played by black actresses, so that was his personal preference, not a creative decision made by DS9's showrunners.

Understandable give a platform to actresses who traditionally do not get a good break in Hollywood

 

[The Old Mixer]

Of course, Avery didn't get everything that he wanted....

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[Tenacity]

If the first black male Captain of Star Trek had been paired with a white woman, who is not playing an alien, trust me that would garner media attention, especially in the black press.

So there was "media attention" when Sisko had sex with mirror universe Dax? I wouldn't think that it would make a difference to the media that Dax was a fictional alien, or that the sex took place in a mirror universe.

Sisko was a black male and Dax was a white female, I've never read that there was any particular outcry over the scene.

Let me guess, in your "Head Canon" World Government does not mean global government?

You guessed wrong, I would consider the two terms fairly interchangeable. Although strictly speaking my original post was correct.

Also, I would consider the possibility that the "world government" Beverly spoke of would be more comparable to something like the current (or earlier version) European Union, rather than a planet wide single nation state.

That might have just been Picard's personal opinion, not him stating official Federation policy.

I don't feel he was referring to any official Federation policies, I touch on earlier that Picard never stated that "unity" (however you interpret that term) was a prerequisite, he never mentions any admission preconditions in that episode.

 

[Ithekro]

The mirror universe usually gets a pass because the universe is suppose to be evil over there (or something).

 

[Tenacity]

The mirror universe usually gets a pass because the universe is suppose to be evil over there (or something).

But in terms of a black man and a white woman having (implied) sex, would that distinction make a difference to people and the media outside of Star Trek fandom?

And there already was a mixed race couple/marriage on Star Trek, Miles and Keiko, it was frequently featured.

 

[Tracy Trek]

And there already was a mixed race couple/marriage on Star Trek, Miles and Keiko, it was frequently featured.

And I can't recall that there was ever an issue made of it.

 

[Nyotarules]

And I can't recall that there was ever an issue made of it.

Real life racial politics; When is comes to desirable partners on the human totem pole, a person of full African descent is not at the top of the tree for other racial groups. So Caucasian Miles with SE Asian Keiko is no big deal, if she was in our time then she has struck racial gold. Sisko got a pass for having a one night stand with an alien. I doubt the same would have happened if his long term partner and wife, Kassidy was a white human female. Especially if she was a blonde, blue eyed human female.

 

[Tenacity]

I doubt the same would have happened if his long term partner and wife, Kassidy was a white human female. Especially if she was a blonde, blue eyed human female.

If Sisko were a black female and the spouse were a "non-black" man do you feel there would still be the same public problem?

Nyotarules, I'm honestly not trying to be deliberately obtuse or combative on this point, I really don't see what you're trying to say. All non-whites have faced discrimination in American culture through our history, is it your position that black men face a different level of discrimination than other men who were non-white and also non-black? A man from India or man who was Arab. Because the discrimination was definately there too.

 

[Six of Twelve]

Nyotarules wasn't "trying to say" anything - she SAID it and she made her point quite clearly, too.

I've seen evidence of what she says. I have a friend who is biracial - half Japanese and half Caucasian, who grew up in the Deep South in the late 50s into the 1960s. They were never subject to the heavy level of racism that a mixed black/white family would have been during the same place and time. Indeed, the fact that this family was able to live peacefully where they did and that the husband had a successful business and the kids had plenty of friends.