• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

uniforms

Ranks with medical doctors and councelors have been high. When councelor Troi was on the bridge everyone and even Troi was shocked she was a Lt Commander. A Lt Commander that has so little understanding what she should do she had to ask Ensign Ro what should be done.

Really have to say, I cannot see the medical doctor as the primary character having a rank of ensign. Now, in TNG there were a few medical doctors but nobody really asked them to take care of their medical problem.

What was really strange, DS9 had a doctor but as best as I understand he did not have a nurse or to be blunt a medical staff. Poor Ezri, she was a councelor but her only person she was treating was herself. Vic took her job to take care of Nog.

Think it all flows. Yes, I think you can be in medical and have the rank of ENSIGN.
 
The initial bunch of Starfleet officers and crew assigned to DS9 seemed to be more a collection of those who wanted to go and less a tightly integrated organization with an airtight arrangement of ranks. Apparently, Bajorans were supposed to form at least half of the personnel, and perhaps much more than that. Bashir had Bajoran nurses, and O'Brien had Bajoran engineers. Dax didn't seem to have any science staff, though, as none would be needed when that station was supposed to just orbit Bajor. And the security forces intially seemed segregated between Bajoran militia and Starfleet, with separate chains of command, but things started to get better integrated as mutual understanding increased.

The annoying fact remains that we have never really observed a Starfleet medical career through all its early hoops. Yes, it's possible that Bashir and Lense graduated at higher than Ensign rank - but it's also possible that they didn't. I'd just like to keep my options open until an episode or a movie finally establishes how this is supposed to work.

Say, perhaps there's Starfleet training to Ensign rank, and then obligatory postgrad medical training that results in Lt(jg) rank, before one is cleared for his or her first medical assignment in Starfleet service. This might best explain how Bashir seems green at Lt(jg) rank and is already 27 when arriving at his seeming first assignment.

Or then one has to have medical training before being eligible for the Medical line at Starfleet Academy. This might best explain how McCoy can be as old as Kirk, or older still, in the new timeline of STXI, and still be a mere cadet - he took the medical training first.

Perhaps Starfleet allows for both options. Or perhaps the former is the 24th century way and the latter the 23rd century one. Too bad we never learned the 22nd century version, because our doctor there was a civilian foreigner...

Timo Saloniemi
 
When councelor Troi was on the bridge everyone and even Troi was shocked she was a Lt Commander.

Where was Troi surprised by her rank? I don't remember this.

A Lt Commander that has so little understanding what she should do she had to ask Ensign Ro what should be done.
Troi had little understanding of what to do in that situation. In counseling and psychiatry (presumably) she has no problems. So, it's horses for courses. Are you saying that Troi doesn't deserve her rank because she can't stop a warp core breach? I think she deserves it because she can help people recover from trauma and improve their mental health.
 
Too bad we never learned the 22nd century version, because our doctor there was a civilian foreigner...

Timo Saloniemi

He was a civilian by he still had the "i'm the CMO and can order anybody around if it's medically-related" clause
 
A Lt Commander that has so little understanding what she should do she had to ask Ensign Ro what should be done.
Troi had little understanding of what to do in that situation. In counseling and psychiatry (presumably) she has no problems. So, it's horses for courses. Are you saying that Troi doesn't deserve her rank because she can't stop a warp core breach? I think she deserves it because she can help people recover from trauma and improve their mental health.

it all goes back to the "your rank tells how good you are at your colour" sort of thing, more or less. Scotty was an excellent Engineer but not meant for command. Likewise, Troi was a great counselour but also not trained for command. Both these characters deserve a high rank in their specialty, reflecting their years of service and skill, but that doesn't translate to automatic command qualifications. Too often "rank" is subconsciously associated with "command ability"
 
To simplify only a tad, rank today is mainly associated with three things, some of them historical remnants: your salary, whether you are in the military for life or just passing by, and whether you are of privileged birth or commoner. The latter two used to be intertwined, but nowadays it's the former two that are related: you are a commissioned officer if you deem the higher but still meager salary good enough for living, but an enlisted fellow if you are there to grab enough money from the lower salary to move on with your life.

On a secondary level, rank may indicate how long you have spent at your job, or how good you are at it. Those two things need not correlate at all.

By the 24th century, one would think that the noblemen vs. peasants thing would finally be forgotten for good, and the social or financial status of the recruit would not affect his or her or its career future much. One would also assume that salaries as career motivators would be massively diminished by the welfare-state nature of the UFP.

This would basically leave us with the "secondary level", and bring rank closer to what to me appears the ideal: an indicator of one's commitment to career, still in terms of service years but even more so in terms of skills and ambitions. There would be little drive to get a higher rank for the higher salary it offers - for all we know, Starfleet has a flat pay rate for all ranks, or has some futuristic arrangement that supercedes pay and does not favor fast promotions. And there might not be any sort of an "up or out" policy, so one could reach advanced age and career years and still remain a junior Lieutenant like Picard in "Tapestry".

As such, rank could be established to perfectly match one's position in the command chain, so that all Lieutenants would be perfect choices for bossing around Ensigns, and all Captains would be good bosses for Commanders. Fields of speciality would still confuse the picture somewhat, though - so it would be an excellent idea to have narrow-fielded specialists wear blue so that one realizes that "their" Commanders aren't necessarily any good commanding "our" Lieutenants.

Whether there would be a rationale for the red and yellow uniforms is debatable, then, but one might argue on basis of the rationale for blue. That is, the TNG yellows or TOS reds would represent middle ground in terms of expertise. They would be generalists enough to be good bosses for all blueshirts, capable of utilizing the special skills of those people without possessing such skills themselves. But the TNG reds or TOS yellows would take this one step further, by being very well trained in command while possessing few actual practical skills. In a crisis situation, one would immediately look for guidance from a TNG redshirt, practical skills from a TNG yellowshirt, and expertise from a blueshirt.

Trying to interpret the three colors as indicating shipboard divisions, skillsets or types of training is a bit futile: three is far too few for that, and even the dozen colors of the TOS movies would be a bit narrow a range. But interpreting the colors as "levels of generalization" or "levels of command qualifications" works just fine in most cases. There are very few instances where a TNG yellowshirt would boss over a TNG redshirt, unless clearly outranking him or her and possessing special expertise pertinent to the situation (usually engineering or security expertise). There are a few instances where a low-ranking TNG redshirt rightfully wrestles command from a slightly higher-ranking TNG yellowshirt, and a lot of instances where blueshirts are bossed around. The cases where a blueshirt gets a say outside his or her area of expertise are extremely rare, unless one counts Spock whose status as a "secret goldshirt" was quite explicit anyway. So that system basically works, whether or not it is intended by the writer of the episode in question, or indeed by any writer.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Indeed, one has to wonder what other flag jobs would be associated with non-red colors. Chief of Starfleet Engineering Division, of course - but we never really saw such a character in any of the episodes, as our heroic engineers had more immediate superiors and were pretty independent anyway. And Chiefs of Science and Medical divisions, but again, those didn't feature in any episode. Most of the other positions would go to redshirts quite naturally...

I'd have thought the JAG folks would wear blue, for their "staff" or "clerical" role, but that ship has long since sailed: JAG wore command colors back in TOS "Court Martial" already. What other departments might warrant blue or TNG yellow at the very top?

Timo Saloniemi
 
I would think that starfleet inteelligence would wear gold due to its security nature. Its probably something that isnt very common. There is actually precedence for this in the US military. Traditionaly, Generals would no longer wear their branch insignia with their uniform once they became generals, sort of how most admirals wear red. The general in charge of the medical service corp still wears his branch insignia due to the nature of his position. I believe the general in charge of the corp of engineers does so as well.
 
I doubt it was ever mentioned, however the nature of his discussion with Sisko plus the fact that he is wearing gold means one can assume he is an Admiral representing one of the gold colored branches. The fact that he was talking about security related issues means one can assume (or retcon lol) that he was in charge of security at the time
 
We have seen flag officers explicitly involved in Intelligence work, in "The Pegasus", who have been clad in command red. This seems to be the Starfleet way, perhaps specifically to separate the "over-the-counter" Security work from the "shady" Intelligence operations in both public image and internal command chains.

Then again, Erik Pressman from "The Pegasus" is actually the only flag officer we have really seen who was stated to be working for Starfleet Intelligence. All the other SFI personnel have been offscreen. Perhaps Pressman wasn't of Starfleet Intelligence himself, and the admirals who had commandeered him for the duration of this mission were indeed clad in yellow?

Was Toddman's position as part of Starfleet Security actually stated in "The Die is Cast", or is this just speculation? Could he have been Intelligence instead? The script at TrekCore does not include any mention of Toddman's connection with Security in the dialogue, only in the backstage bits that don't count - but the script isn't the filmed version, not in all the details.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I'd have thought the JAG folks would wear blue, for their "staff" or "clerical" role, but that ship has long since sailed: JAG wore command colors back in TOS "Court Martial" already. What other departments might warrant blue or TNG yellow at the very top?

JAG Lieutenant Shaw was in "services" red in "Court Martal." Louvois in TNG "The Measure of a Man" was in "command" red, though.

My opinion has always been that the colors don't indicate any particular career path or authority. I think they just indicate what broad division an individual's current assignment is in. Transfer to a different position, you might get a new color. "Command" might not always imply direct succession to command, but is the name of the division with helm, nav and weapons responsibility. There also might be some latitude, such as Spock wearing blue as XO. Flag officers might have their own "headquarters" color system, or flag officers who have a lot of "red" under their command might have the option of wearing the color, as Stone and Stocker did.

There are enough exceptions and oddities that I don't think it's really possible to work out a rigid scheme for the uniform colors.

--Justin
 
Damn, right, Shaw did wear red. I was 100% wrong about that.

As for the exceptions and oddities, those would indeed lead to a very "rigid" scheme if all of them were to be explained away... What is probably impossible to devise is a simple scheme where the exceptions still make some sort of sense other than "it's flexible and allows one officer out of a hundred to pick a color at random".

Timo Saloniemi
 
As for the exceptions and oddities, those would indeed lead to a very "rigid" scheme if all of them were to be explained away... What is probably impossible to devise is a simple scheme where the exceptions still make some sort of sense other than "it's flexible and allows one officer out of a hundred to pick a color at random".

That's right, of course. A system that got too complicated wouldn't be of much practical use, though.

--Justin
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top