uniforms

[jamestyler]

I don't think all officers start out as Ensigns, either. Does anyone know for sure? I mean, didn't Valeris and Saavik go to a type of Command Graduate School, and come out as Lieutenants? And I'm sure that graduates of Starfleet Medical (Bashir) were not Ensigns upon graduation. There must be a similar graduate-type school for Engineering....

As said above, Military Doctors are typically Lieutenants (I learned that from ER Good old TV), which naval terms would be Lieutenant JG...

...though I suspect that it wouldn't be unlikely for an officer trained to take the command route would have specific command training, or an extended course post Academy (explainng Saviks uniform colours) which would allow them to skip a rank as they'd be more qualified than an engineeing graduate.

It would be similar to the idea that if you've trained someone to be captain of a ship, then didn't offer his own own command you'd have wasted a lot of money in that training...

...I'm getting that idea from Down Periscope where Kelsey Grammer played Lt. Commander Dodge, the navy had invested a lot of money training him and not giving him hos own command would be a waste of funding... another TV/Movie reference there

 

[Timo]

So far, we haven't seen a specific example of a person who would graduate from Starfleet Academy at higher than Ensign rank.

We have come close, though: for example, as per published scripts, it was going to be implied in a Phase II episode/telemovie (one alternative to TMP) that MDs and Vulcans graduated at Lieutenant (jg) rank. And the next movie might very well show us that McCoy indeed graduated at such a rank.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cicero]

I don't think all officers start out as Ensigns, either. Does anyone know for sure? I mean, didn't Valeris and Saavik go to a type of Command Graduate School, and come out as Lieutenants? And I'm sure that graduates of Starfleet Medical (Bashir) were not Ensigns upon graduation. There must be a similar graduate-type school for Engineering....

As said above, Military Doctors are typically Lieutenants (I learned that from ER Good old TV), which naval terms would be Lieutenant JG...

I'm fairly sure it's Captain (O-3) in the Army and Air Force and full Lieutenant (O-3) in the Navy and Public Health Service, with higher ranks possible for certain specialties.

 

[jamestyler]

I'm fairly sure it's Captain (O-3) in the Army and Air Force and full Lieutenant (O-3) in the Navy and Public Health Service, with higher ranks possible for certain specialties.

That might be right. My knowledge isn't spot on as I'm going by ER's Dr. Gallant and TV is an odd way to learn things. But... I remember him being a Lieutenant on the show, and Captain when he left fo Iraq - but he was in the Reserves so it may be different.

With Bashir he was seen as fresh out of med school, I'm used to reading the 'Making of DS9' book, so I can't remember of that line was used. Though I'd imagine the stages of medical training would be similar to our own, so he could have been an ensign after four years, but kept training for much longer.

From this I can only conclude I watch far too much TV.

 

[Timo]

That's the thing, really: we have followed none of the Trek doctors in sufficient detail to be able to tell their graduation rank.

Bashir was a Lt(jg) when first seen, but we don't know when he graduated. Years could have passed between the time he received his papers and Ensign pip, and the time he finally got to go to the assignment he had personally selected as the reward for his near-excellence.

Nurse Ogawa had the Ensign pip and in an alternate future was a full MD. Nurse Chapel was a full Lieutenant in TAS and perhaps held commissioned rank in TOS already, and also eventually made full MD. Perhaps their training and career development was basically similar to that of Bashir, just not quite as fast-tracked - perhaps Starfleet MDs start off as nurse-style medics of Ensign rank, and the best and brightest immediately move forward while others remain as nurses for their entire careers.

The new movie might give our very first bits of evidence on how a Starfleet doctor graduates. That is, if we accept it as a somewhat weird part of the standard Trek canon, rather than a completely new fictional universe that tells us nothing about "the real McCoy".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ClayinCA]

So far, we haven't seen a specific example of a person who would graduate from Starfleet Academy at higher than Ensign rank.

We have come close, though: for example, as per published scripts, it was going to be implied in a Phase II episode/telemovie (one alternative to TMP) that MDs and Vulcans graduated at Lieutenant (jg) rank. And the next movie might very well show us that McCoy indeed graduated at such a rank.

Timo Saloniemi

Wasn't Kirk a lieutenant at the Academy, according to "Where No Man has Gone Before"?

 

[jamestyler]

Wasn't Kirk a lieutenant at the Academy, according to "Where No Man has Gone Before"?

I just looked it up in the Chronology... it has Kirk graduating in 54 and refers to him from there at Lieutenant... in the same year it references him commanding his first planetary survey mentioned in 'A Private Little War', so that ep might have something on his being a Lieutenant there - I havent seen it in years.

Though his academy graduating date assumes he entered at 17 and lasted four years at the academy as The Deadly Years has him at 34 and a Private Little War has him as a Lieutenant prior to the episode.

I like my books.

 

[Damask]

T
Bashir was a Lt(jg) when first seen, but we don't know when he graduated. Years could have passed between the time he received his papers and Ensign pip, and the time he finally got to go to the assignment he had personally selected as the reward for his near-excellence.

I don't follow. You're saying he graduated but years could have past until he graduated and Bashir actually being assigned to DS9? It seemed like he graduated, picked DS9 and off he went. The post on the Lexington seemed like it was open for his graduating class.

Lense was also a LT(jg) in Explorers too.

Armageddon Game
BASHIR
What happened is I graduated... her father was the top
administrator for a medical complex in Paris... he offered me
a job there... promised I'd be chief of surgery within five
years...

O'BRIEN
But that meant giving up your career in Starfleet...

BASHIR

You have no idea how close I came...But... here I am...
Explorers
BASHIR
Absolutely. We were neck and neck
right up to the final exam. And
then I blew it.

And that's how she wound up on the
Lexington. A post virtually everyone
in our graduating class was hoping
for.

 

[Timo]

Yup, I'm saying that it was never explicitly stated that Bashir rushed from his graduation party to the first flight from San Francisco to Bajor. We don't have the date for his graduation, so it's possible to squeeze a year of Ensign service in there. If Bashir wanted to serve on a frontier outpost, it might mean waiting for a war to end (as it did in the case of DS9 at least), and Bashir could continue his studies or do something else. Say, take that Paris job for a while (he never says he didn't), then give it up for his dream.

Nor is it said that Lense went from the Academy podium straight to the Lexington shuttle. She only "wound up" there eventually.

Perhaps that's standard procedure: you graduate as Ensign, then complete more studies unrelated to your officer training, and then get your first real job. It seems Kirk had to wait for Lieutenant (jg?) rank before he got his first real assignment, too... Assuming his Ensign days on the Republic were part of his instructor stint, which might explain his uptight attitude towards Finney's little mistake.

If MDs graduate at higher rank, one then wonders why a scientist like Jadzia Dax or an engineer like Benjamin Sisko would ever be an Ensign. Surely they would be as privileged as a sawbones when it came to translating academic credentials into collar brass?

Wasn't Kirk a lieutenant at the Academy, according to "Where No Man has Gone Before"?

Yeah, but he wasn't an undergraduate. Since he was a Lieutenant, that would mean that he had already graduated, in standard military terms anyway. Indeed, since he was an instructor who taught classes to Gary Mitchell, it would make sense that he was a postgraduate, since those are likelier to get instructor jobs.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Damask]

We don't have the date for his graduation, so it's possible to squeeze a year of Ensign service in there.

Oh sure. However we also saw Sisko strolling on the beach waiting for his first assignment. It doesn't necessarily mean Bashir was an ensign.

If Bashir wanted to serve on a frontier outpost, it might mean waiting for a war to end (as it did in the case of DS9 at least), and Bashir could continue his studies or do something else.

Possibly. He could have taken advanced classes like the engineering classes he (or the Founder Bashir claimed to have taken)

Say, take that Paris job for a while (he never says he didn't), then give it up for his dream.

Well he did say "you have no idea how close I claim" with a suggestion that he would have had to give up a career in Starfleet. I'm leaning to he didn't take it.

Nor is it said that Lense went from the Academy podium straight to the Lexington shuttle. She only "wound up" there eventually.

Sure but the post was apparently available so that her graduating class could go for it. It might have meant waiting but we don't how long.

I do think it odd that someone fresh from the academy could become a CMO straight away though but that's different from a LT.

If MDs graduate at higher rank, one then wonders why a scientist like Jadzia Dax or an engineer like Benjamin Sisko would ever be an Ensign. Surely they would be as privileged as a sawbones when it came to translating academic credentials into collar brass?

Well Jadzia is a different case. I don't think we know if she ever served anywhere before DS9 either? Did Data serve anywhere before the ENT? It is possible that if you come within the top say 3% of your graduating class and possibly take other courses you can be assigned as chief whatever on ships/starbases.

Would the work they do in the academy or at SF Headquarters (research etc,) be much different to work they would do on a ship?

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

It is possible that Dr. Bashir had done either some previous work in Starfleet or perhaps something Starfleet recognizes before going to Starfleet Medical. This would back up O'Brien's remark

O'BRIEN
But that meant giving up your career in Starfleet...

Didn't Lt. Malcolm Reed serve in some sort of European/British/Earth security force before Starfleet? Did he join Starfleet as an Ensign or a Lieutenant?

I believe that if you're an Eagle Scout, the US Army will start you off as a Private 1st Class instead of just a Private.

 

[Red Ranger]

Folks,

I don't buy that Bashir spent a lengthy amount of time in between graduating and being posted to DSN. I point to his comments to Kira when she first meets him, that he had his pick of any assignment, but DSN is where he wanted to be so he could practice real frontier medicine.

Also, Jadzia's comments about how young and green he was convince me that DSN was his first-ever assignment after graduating from the Academy.

Red Ranger

 

[jamestyler]

Didn't Lt. Malcolm Reed serve in some sort of European/British/Earth security force before Starfleet? Did he join Starfleet as an Ensign or a Lieutenant?

I assumed as Starfleets quite new in his time he was just absorbed (as was hinted in DS9 when Bajor would join the Federation), retaining his previous or equivalent rank.

Though obviously given the specialist/spacetype training.

 

[captcalhoun]

Data served on the Trieste before joining the E-D.

 

[Red Ranger]

Data served on the Trieste before joining the E-D.

Do you recall when he said that? I just remember him saying, "I know the Trieste. Too slow." Think that was in the Binars ep. That could simply mean he's familiar with the vessel, not necessarily that he served on that ship. -- RR

 

[captcalhoun]

TNG's "Clues"

 

[Chaos Descending]

EDIT: Nevermind, question answered.

 

[Red Ranger]

TNG's "Clues"

Dagnabit, I forgot about that ep! Thanks.

BTW, to steer this a bit back on topic, I believe Data started out as an ensign, and it took him a few years at various ranks before he made lt. cmdr., from dialogue in Datalore about his rank progression. He explains this as an answer to Lore's question of when he could get a uniform like Data's, I think.

Red Ranger

 

[Anticitizen]

Who was Spock's second in command when he was captain of the Enterprise? Or did the fact that the Enterprise was doing training cruise duty mean that Saavik, as a trainee, filled the role?

 

[captcalhoun]

i don't believe it's ever explained.