uniforms

[Timo]

...Perhaps we can fall back on the various precedents on real-world top officers being eccentric with their dress code, and influential enough to get away with it? After all, the oddity we discuss here is limited to flag officers - as are the various problems regarding the bewildering number of 24th century flag uniform variants vs. the limited number of standard uniform variants. "Seemingly" one-off or two-off flag uniforms (that is, just a couple of appearances on our screens) might well have been "true" custom jobs (that is, only two in existence in Starfleet, and against the regs, but nobody has the guts to get these eccentrics back in line)!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WillsBabe]

My opinion has always been that the colors don't indicate any particular career path or authority. I think they just indicate what broad division an individual's current assignment is in. Transfer to a different position, you might get a new color.

I was wondering about Riker during this discussion. Will wears red but Tom was wearing gold when they discovered him.

 

[Timo]

One might argue that all the people headed for "high command" jobs such as XO or CO of a starship have to take a period of training in "lesser" duties despite starting on a "red path". Riker did this. Worf did this. Sisko did this (although we don't know whether he started as a redshirt, and he apparently didn't originally intend for a redshirt assignment after being an engineer to the Okinawa). LaForge did this, starting with red (although he never proceeded past his surprise yellowshirt posting as the CEO of the E-D).

In contrast, we don't know of any CO or XO who wouldn't have done something like this, at least not yet. We do have a reason to suspect that Spock didn't start out as a goldshirt despite eventually getting XO and CO postings, though - and the new movie probably supports the notion. And the movie might also establish that Kirk never had a redshirt phase, despite the "Obsession" backstory. Then again, since the movie deals with an alternate timeline for the most part, it's hard to tell at this stage whether this evidence will be admissible in court...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[captcalhoun]

Worf started in red, switched to gold/mustard and then went back to red...

figure that one out, smarty-pants.

 

[Red Ranger]

We have seen flag officers explicitly involved in Intelligence work, in "The Pegasus", who have been clad in command red. This seems to be the Starfleet way, perhaps specifically to separate the "over-the-counter" Security work from the "shady" Intelligence operations in both public image and internal command chains.

Then again, Erik Pressman from "The Pegasus" is actually the only flag officer we have really seen who was stated to be working for Starfleet Intelligence. All the other SFI personnel have been offscreen. Perhaps Pressman wasn't of Starfleet Intelligence himself, and the admirals who had commandeered him for the duration of this mission were indeed clad in yellow?

Was Toddman's position as part of Starfleet Security actually stated in "The Die is Cast", or is this just speculation? Could he have been Intelligence instead? The script at TrekCore does not include any mention of Toddman's connection with Security in the dialogue, only in the backstage bits that don't count - but the script isn't the filmed version, not in all the details.

Timo Saloniemi

Wasn't there another red-clad admiral seen who was in charge of security? I think there was a Vice Admiral Henry, in charge of Starfleet Security, who attends Admiral Satie's hearing on Captain Picard's fitness in The Drumhead.

And as to whether all admirals with different specialities wear only red, there's additional evidence in The Offspring. Vice Admiral Haftel, who wants to take Lal back to Starfleet, is supposed to be an expert in cybernetics, but wears command red as well.

So I guess this establishes that most of the time, admirals wear command red despite the branch they specialize in, with the exception of Todd.

Red Ranger

 

[Red Ranger]

Worf started in red, switched to gold/mustard and then went back to red...

figure that one out, smarty-pants.

Multiple career personality disorder! -- RR

 

[jamestyler]

Worf started in red, switched to gold/mustard and then went back to red...

figure that one out, smarty-pants.

Bridge coffee boy > Security > Sisko's secretary/made up title we'd never heard off before.

It was slightly annoying as Worf and Geordie went from essentially being Starfleets version of PA's to department heads with nothing in between. And Geordie's quick promotion.

Possibly on topic... but it always bugged me that on the Valiant Collin's was given a field commission of a petty officer. If they're red squad cadets and crewman don't go to the Academy (as stated in Season 4?) why wasn't she an ensign or something?

 

[clint g]

Worf started in red, switched to gold/mustard and then went back to red...

figure that one out, smarty-pants.

Bridge coffee boy > Security > Sisko's secretary/made up title we'd never heard off before.

It was slightly annoying as Worf and Geordie went from essentially being Starfleets version of PA's to department heads with nothing in between. And Geordie's quick promotion.

Possibly on topic... but it always bugged me that on the Valiant Collin's was given a field commission of a petty officer. If they're red squad cadets and crewman don't go to the Academy (as stated in Season 4?) why wasn't she an ensign or something?

Lack of knowledge when it comes to military protocol on the parts of the writers
Honestly, Trek is in a desperate need of a military advisor. Some of the errors they make are groan inducing lol

 

[TEH BABA]

Trek needs a marine or former naval officer as a military consult.

 

[ROBE]

I agree it really needs a Navy adviser, okay it is a futuristic space service but it is clearly based on the navy.

 

[Timo]

Possibly on topic... but it always bugged me that on the Valiant Collin's was given a field commission of a petty officer. If they're red squad cadets and crewman don't go to the Academy (as stated in Season 4?) why wasn't she an ensign or something?

Because this wasn't Starfleet giving field promotions to accomplished cadets. It was a bunch of kids playing Lord of the Flies and trying to staff a crewless starship.

On one hand, Watterson need not have given anybody any pseudo-ranks - they could have managed the ship without creating a fake hierarchy. On the other, the fake hierarchy would help a lot with managing the ship, since hierarchies exist for a reason in military services. And giving one cadet the rate of Petty Officer is no more objectionable than giving another the rank of Captain or Commander. Both are steps away from the usual promotion protocol, obviously disallowed by that protocol - and this makes sense, as the steps are taken for a different purpose, one of creating an insta-hierarchy where one did not exist before at all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ROBE]

Talking about colour coding departments. In the Royal Navy officers had the following colour coding highlights on their gold stripes, engineering (purple), surgeons (red), pursers (white), dentists (orange), instructors (light blue), shipwrights (silver grey), wardmaster (maroon), electrical (dark green), ordnance (dark blue). These were all dropped in the 1950s except for surgeons and dentists. Command officers rank stripes had no colour highlights.

 

[dreadpiraterose]

so would that mean paris is above tuvak in chain of command i thought tuvak was above paris?

No. Paris was just in the command division but Tuvok was a higher rank, a department head, and designated second officer (3rd in command after Janeway and Chakotay).

Right. It's about what division/department you fall into. Not necessarily who is senior and who isn't.