Uniform Differences

[Cary L. Brown]

What would it take to convince you, more pictures?

Of course a photo that hasn't been artistically altered would be convincing. It just seems clear that the delta shield has been a recurring theme for the film's promotion -- these posters remind us of that. The subtle delta shield pattern, as seen in this posters, could be just an "easter egg" of sorts -- a little detail for us to catch, just like the delta reflected in their eyes. The graphic designers might also have decided that the uniforms needed some sort of texture when printed in monochrome on large posters. At this point, the delta pattern could just be an artistic addition.

It does seem like, well... like a rather extravagant expense for something that the audience really couldn't give a flying @#$* about.

It's really not all that common for a film production to commission their own fabric production facility with their own custom weaving mechanics. You can do this with molding, or embossing, easily enough... but not with fabric weaving.

SO...

1) Maybe they spend half of the movie's budget setting up a specialized textile manufacturing facility?

2) Maybe they found a fabric already in production which has a "delta-shield-like" element in the weave already?

3) Maybe the overshirts aren't made from any fabric in the sense we think of (ie, they're molded plastic)?

4) Maybe the thing is simply photoshopped in, as is being proposed.

I find #1 to be INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY. And #3 brings in a whole new set of problems to be dealth with (fabric is easy to work with and looks good... other materials, less o).

So, for me, I tend to think that it's either #2, or #4. And if it's #2, that's just a case of dumb luck... of someone having stumbled upon this fabric.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It was done for "Spider-Man." It was done for "Superman Returns." And it was done for Abrams' "Star Trek."

 

[Jon1701]

I suppose the only thing you could say for Spiderman, Superman et all is that they only had to make one outfit (although they probably made plenty of spares) as opposed the the hundreds they made this time out. I've no idea the costs involved in creating a delta shield-esqe fabric off the shelf. I assume its a relatively simple process but I honestly have no idea.

I think we need a fabric expert. Do we have a fabric expert on the board? There's never a fabric expert when you need one.

I can't believe I'm discussing fabric.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The likelihood of it is academic. The costumes are printed with the Starfleet chevron.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

It was done for "Spider-Man." It was done for "Superman Returns." And it was done for Abrams' "Star Trek."

No, neither of the above created custom woven fabrics, and I'd be shocked if Abrams did it either.

Both Spiderman and SR had RUBBER SUITS. Which, if you notice, I DID mention. But since I sincerely doubt that the clothes our stars will be wearing on-screen will be molded rubber (complete with "bat-nipples?") I doubt that this is relevant...

Do you have reason to believe that the costumes being worn in this film will have that?

Oh, and as for "Spiderman," I didn't notice any "little spider" in the weave of any fabric. I noticed big, embossed rubber stripes on it, but that's hardly the same thing. So we're limited to "Superman Returns." Which was a rubber muscle-suit, wasn't it?

 

[ManOnTheWave]

http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2005-04-22-super-man_x.htm

This article with the SR costume designer doesn't say anything about rubber suits, but does say they relied on Routh to fill out the suit with his body. It was material with sculpted rubber accents.

"This first look at Superman Returns— due in theaters in June 2006 — shows that the skin-tight costume stretches over only the actor's muscles and frame, without the augmented armored pecs or abs of recent movie superheroes...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man_2


Spider Man had fake muscles, but they were still under cloth.

 

[Jon1701]

The likelihood of it is academic. The costumes are printed with the Starfleet chevron.

Oh, I agree completely.

The costumes are clearly printed with the chevron. Having said that, I would have thought something like that would have been cost prohibative, but the budget is...what, $120-150 million? You could buy a decent factory in india or china for that...

 

[Cary L. Brown]

I suppose the only thing you could say for Spiderman, Superman et all is that they only had to make one outfit (although they probably made plenty of spares) as opposed the the hundreds they made this time out. I've no idea the costs involved in creating a delta shield-esqe fabric off the shelf. I assume its a relatively simple process but I honestly have no idea.

I think we need a fabric expert. Do we have a fabric expert on the board? There's never a fabric expert when you need one.

I can't believe I'm discussing fabric.

In order to create a new weave, you have to createa new weaving process and, in most cases, create new weaving machinery to produce it. And it's not a trivial task to come up with a weaving pattern.

I've never dealt with this for clothing purposes, but I've dealt with composites using woven fabric meshes integrated into them. In these cases, it's critical to get the "weave" exactly right for mechanical purposes, as you can certainly guess.

To create a new weaving process would probably run in the range of between 3 and 5 million dollars. Unless, as I said, they got lucky and found a fabric which already had the right shape in it already, purely by coincidence.

Now, if the shirts are some form of polymer-blend (rayon/polyester, for instance) they could theoretically "iron in" the patterns... essentially, do a small local melt of the fabric fibers to give it a little "sheen" in various locations. This would be practical, but the fabric would be compromised in terms of its strength... meaning that the tunics would probably only last through three wearings (and washings) before they'd need replacement.

But, again, the ONLY time this has ever been done in the past was with what were literally "rubber suits."

Furthermore... think about it... who's going to NOTICE the little symbols in the fabric? If the audience is bored enough by the STORY to be paying attention to the FABRIC WEAVING... then as far as I'm concerned, this'll mean that we have a true BOMB on our hands.

Only us... the "hardcore fans"... will even really care that the costumes are blue, red, and an earth-tone gold... and that's as it should be.

If even the FANS give a flying @#$* about "little symbols" in the fabric... and worse yet, if the production team WANTS US to give a flying @#$* about that... the production is doomed!

 

[ManOnTheWave]

While I think the uniforms being made of little chevrons is Superman Returns lame, it's not that far a stretch. And it doesn't look as stupid as having a camo pattern made up of the GIJoe logo. The approach they seem to be taking with TOS unis is just layered athletic wear like Nike, Adidas, or Under Armor. The chevron is also a minor detail you'll barely see onscreen.

Why would it be lame?

I said it would be "Superman Returns lame" because Superman's suit in that film was made of little s's. As for why it would be lame, I don't see a military organization making it's uniforms out of it's symbol. It seems silly to me, like if the army made it camo patterns out of patriotic stars. I then go into a possible reason why it would thematically fit the costumes of TOS and be less silly.

 

[ManOnTheWave]

It started with colors... moved on to fabric... and THEN...

Edit: I was replying to jon... who is now posted after this one... and...


head explodes

 

[Jon1701]

I suppose the only thing you could say for Spiderman, Superman et all is that they only had to make one outfit (although they probably made plenty of spares) as opposed the the hundreds they made this time out. I've no idea the costs involved in creating a delta shield-esqe fabric off the shelf. I assume its a relatively simple process but I honestly have no idea.

I think we need a fabric expert. Do we have a fabric expert on the board? There's never a fabric expert when you need one.

I can't believe I'm discussing fabric.

In order to create a new weave, you have to createa new weaving process and, in most cases, create new weaving machinery to produce it. And it's not a trivial task to come up with a weaving pattern.

I've never dealt with this for clothing purposes, but I've dealt with composites using woven fabric meshes integrated into them. In these cases, it's critical to get the "weave" exactly right for mechanical purposes, as you can certainly guess.

To create a new weaving process would probably run in the range of between 3 and 5 million dollars. Unless, as I said, they got lucky and found a fabric which already had the right shape in it already, purely by coincidence.

Now, if the shirts are some form of polymer-blend (rayon/polyester, for instance) they could theoretically "iron in" the patterns... essentially, do a small local melt of the fabric fibers to give it a little "sheen" in various locations. This would be practical, but the fabric would be compromised in terms of its strength... meaning that the tunics would probably only last through three wearings (and washings) before they'd need replacement.

But, again, the ONLY time this has ever been done in the past was with what were literally "rubber suits."

Furthermore... think about it... who's going to NOTICE the little symbols in the fabric? If the audience is bored enough by the STORY to be paying attention to the FABRIC WEAVING... then as far as I'm concerned, this'll mean that we have a true BOMB on our hands.

Only us... the "hardcore fans"... will even really care that the costumes are blue, red, and an earth-tone gold... and that's as it should be.

If even the FANS give a flying @#$* about "little symbols" in the fabric... and worse yet, if the production team WANTS US to give a flying @#$* about that... the production is doomed!

I still can't believe we are discussing fabric. Fabric. Man, we are fucking nerds...

 

[Franklin]

With computerized weaving and weaving pattern software out there, would creating a small and tight Starfleet shield pattern in fabric really be much more complicated than doing a fancy herringbone or hounds tooth pattern?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

With computerized weaving and weaving pattern software out there, would creating a small and tight Starfleet shield pattern in fabric really be much more complicated than doing a fancy herringbone or hounds tooth pattern?

There's been a lot of innovation in textile weaving and printing technology. This is far from the first time this has been done for a movie - it's a cool thing, but not challenging from a technical or budget POV on a film of this scale.

 

[PowderedToastMan]

...It was mentioned in this article at TrekMovie that it is indeed a fabric pattern...

Sorta:

As TrekMovie’s closer look at the new poster reveals (above), the colored uniform blouses have small ‘delta shield’ emblems woven into the fabric (this is most apparent on Saldana’s)

That just means: "Hey, we looked at the poster and saw a delta pattern."

That is no more authoritative than anyone else looking at the poster.
.

We have actually known about the delta woven into ALL the uniforms for quite a while, it is just now that we can show it

 

[Michael]

We have actually known about the delta woven into ALL the uniforms for quite a while, it is just now that we can show it

You knew it all along?! And you didn't tell us? What kind of news site are you?





Kust kidding, of course.

 

[Gepard]

There's been a lot of innovation in textile weaving and printing technology. This is far from the first time this has been done for a movie - it's a cool thing, but not challenging from a technical or budget POV on a film of this scale.

Indeed. Just as an example (Cary... ), LucasFilm had custom patterned fabric woven for the Jedi robes in the prequel films. Some enterprising fans even joined forces and hired a company to recreate the weave for sale to other fans interested in making costumes; so it's clearly expensive, but not so much that it's beyond the reach of a movie studio, or even a few die-hard fans.

 

[PixelMagic]

I don't think the delta shield is weaved into the fabric, it's probably silk screened on.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

It might just be part of the movie poster art. The whole promotion so far has focused on the delta shield. I doubt that the actors actually will have little delta shields in their eyes in the film -- that's just part of the artwork. So too could be the delta pattern on the uniforms here to give them some texture. I am not convinced that's the actually fabric pattern in the film.

It was mentioned in this article at TrekMovie that it is indeed a fabric pattern. That detail and others from the article were discussed in this thread, which also contains links to images in which the fabric pattern can be clearly made out.

The delta shields in the eyes most likely will not be seen in the film. That's just ad stuff.

I read through the entire thread (as it was being written) which you refer to, and either I missed the post showing the shield-in-weaving or it wasn't really there...

http://www.trekmovie.com/images/trekmovieposter1.jpgI remember that in the old board software it was quite easy to link to a specific post inside a specific thread. I haven't tried that since the change-over, but it seems likely that it wouldn't be much different... so perhaps you can link to the specific post?

Also... why isn't this evident in the Quinto-as-Spock image? His costume's "over-shirt" looks, simply, like velour, doesn't it?

http://www.trekmovie.com/images/trekmovieposter1.jpg

 

[Therin of Andor]

Why would it be lame?

Or lamé?

 

[shapeshifter]

I've noticed that the new uniform's material has the Trek logo pattern embossed throughout for Uhura, Scotty, McCoy, Sulu, and Chekov, but not for Spock (maybe not for Kirk as well).

Is this something subtle they're doing interconnected to the ranks? Officers vs. Enlisted?

Ok, since there seems to alot of aggrement/conformation about the "delta texture" to the uniforms.

This goes back to my original post: Why does the texture seem to be missing from Spock's shirt?

Also... why isn't this evident in the Quinto-as-Spock image? His costume's "over-shirt" looks, simply, like velour, doesn't it?
http://www.trekmovie.com/images/trekmovieposter1.jpg

I too do not see the pattern on Spock's shirt and I am thinking it may be his shirt was not created by whoever created the Starfleet uniforms. I mean, (in story) the Vulcan's supply their own with custom uniforms which meet the special requirements (need to be warmer) for Vulcan's in the Fleet. Also, the use of patterned material, along with being "illogical" may inhibit the insulating quality of the material used but more likely - they just want to be different.