Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility be?

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

right-wingers are totally fine with big government in the case of the military, corporations and banks.
The actual choice is between socialism for a few rich fucks or socialism for everybody.

I have no problem with a big military.

Because it is a big world, the U.S. is a big nation, with big responsibilities and the military (like the space program) is obviously something that cannot be done by state and local govt. (much less individuals).

But support for big govt. in two or three areas does not infer or mandate support for it in ALL areas.

Finally, I'm fine with letting the big corporations and banks go hang. Too big to fail? Screw'em. If they screw up, let them die.

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

...if EVERYONE is responsible for taking care of the poor (through govt. programs) then NO ONE feels actual personal responsibility for doing it.

But private and religious charity can't meet the welfare needs of of a vast superpower of 320 million men, women and children. Federal, state and local government assistance programs funded by tax dollars are the only logical and efficient means of giving help to those who need it in the numbers that exist in a nation this enormous. Even in a nation a fraction of our size like the UK there's a need for a healthy, government-run social safety net to make sure that those in trouble have their needs adequately met.

To echo what several others here have said and quite well, expecting nothing but private compassion to fill the entire vacuum created by poverty and other needs is just extreme naivete. Even if America were a nation of 320,000 instead of a thousand times that number there'd still be a need for at least a few small government programs to take up the slack for what private charity couldn't do because of lack of funding. Say what you want about governmental coffers, but they don't run out of funds like private charitable organizations' can and often do.

 

[horatio83]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

right-wingers are totally fine with big government in the case of the military, corporations and banks.
The actual choice is between socialism for a few rich fucks or socialism for everybody.

I have no problem with a big military.

Because it is a big world, the U.S. is a big nation, with big responsibilities and the military (like the space program) is obviously something that cannot be done by state and local govt. (much less individuals).

But support for big govt. in two or three areas does not infer or mandate support for it in ALL areas.

Finally, I'm fine with letting the big corporations and banks go hang. Too big to fail? Screw'em. If they screw up, let them die.

About the military, the defense budget of the US is roughly as large as that of the rest of the world. You do not need to be an expert to recognize that it is overblown. From a pure Kissingerian point of view the imperial strategy of the US it is also less efficient than the way the Chinese get their hands on resources worldwide.

About banks, a bank is not just an ordinary company, it supplies the economy with credit so its bankruptcy has an impact upon other companies. In econspeak these are negative externalities which constitute a market failure. If you tolerate the bankruptcy of a big bank like Lehman you cause a credit crunch and a recession.
Obviously the best form of bail-out is one where the public gets the most for its money which is control over the bank, i.e. it should buy up the bank, public money for stocks.
You need a strong government to temporarily (emphasis being on temporarily) socialize the banks like Sweden did back in the nineties and you need a strong government to prevent the formation of big banks to begin with.

But as we can witness in their climate change denial right-wingers chose to ignore stuff from econ 101 like externalities. Note that I did not even make any political arguments to debunk you, it is all just technical analysis. And this very asymmetry makes these political discussions so boring.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

But private and religious charity can't meet the welfare needs of of a vast superpower of 320 million men, women and children. Federal, state and local government assistance programs funded by tax dollars are the only logical and efficient means of giving help to those who need it in the numbers that exist in a nation this enormous. Even in a nation a fraction of our size like the UK there's a need for a healthy, government-run social safety net to make sure that those in trouble have their needs adequately met.

Not to mention the fact that they ensure everyone that is eligible for support gets it. No personal philosophies getting in the way of actually helping those who need it.

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Exactly. If you financially qualify for the help you need and can prove just a few other important things, you pretty much get it except in the rarest of instances. No faith-based or other philosophical stipulations or requirements that private and religious charity organizations have the complete, unfettered freedom to impose on applicants for assistance. More people are turned down by private charity than by the average government agency, and private charities normally have much less money with which to lend aid. Plenty of private charities run out of cash and have to turn people down. Say what you will about government debt and deficits, but it's very uncommon for an agency to run completely out of funding and have to turn everybody away.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

right-wingers are totally fine with big government in the case of the military, corporations and banks.
The actual choice is between socialism for a few rich fucks or socialism for everybody.

I have no problem with a big military.

Because it is a big world, the U.S. is a big nation, with big responsibilities and the military (like the space program) is obviously something that cannot be done by state and local govt. (much less individuals).

But support for big govt. in two or three areas does not infer or mandate support for it in ALL areas.

Finally, I'm fine with letting the big corporations and banks go hang. Too big to fail? Screw'em. If they screw up, let them die.

About the military, the defense budget of the US is roughly as large as that of the rest of the world. You do not need to be an expert to recognize that it is overblown. .

No other nation on Earth has a fraction of the U.S. military obligations.

Don't like it? Cut down our geopolitical, economic, and military obligations. Cut that first. Then decide how large a military you need.

That said, but largest portion of the U.S. military budget is for personnel. The budget for weapons and equipment is but a relatively small fraction.

 

[horatio83]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Exactly. If you financially qualify for the help you need and can prove just a few other important things, you pretty much get it except in the rarest of instances. No faith-based or other philosophical stipulations or requirements that private and religious charity organizations have the complete, unfettered freedom to impose on applicants for assistance. More people are turned down by private charity than by the average government agency, and private charities normally have much less money with which to lend aid. Plenty of private charities run out of cash and have to turn people down. Say what you will about government debt and deficits, but it's very uncommon for an agency to run completely out of funding and have to turn everybody away.

Indeed. Id like to add that I doubt that any charity organization covers medical bills. Furthermore a private player cannot do something systemic and countercyclical like unemployment insurance. Precisely because unemployment is a systemic risk no private insurance company can offer it and precisely because people become unemployed in recessions, in times when people give less money to charity organizations, these very charities cannot provide it either unless they actually save money in good times to have enough during bad times. Somehow I doubt that they do this.
The government on the other hand can spend in recessions and provide people with unemployment insurance and food stamps.

Charity is important, it can provide food and used clothes as well as other used items like furniture for poor folks. But it cannot do the big things like medical care, unemployment insurance and so on.

 

[horatio83]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

No other nation on Earth has a fraction of the U.S. military obligations.

Don't like it? Cut down our geopolitical, economic, and military obligations. Cut that first. Then decide how large a military you need.

That said, but largest portion of the U.S. military budget is for personnel. The budget for weapons and equipment is but a relatively small fraction.

More right-wing fairy tales. You have no obligations to anybody. Of course you are the biggest player in the NATO and as a German citizen I am happy that you guys protected us from the grip of Stalin after WWII but now the Cold War is over.

To protect your nation a quarter of the current budget would most likely suffice. Anything beyond is simple power politics and wars like in Afghanistan are fought for resources. As I already said, there are easier ways to play this resource grabbing game. In terms of natural resources the Chinese have half of Africa under their control without requiring one tank.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Anything beyond is simple power politics and wars like in Afghanistan are fought for resources. As I already said, there are easier ways to play this resource grabbing game.

What natural resources are the US getting out of Afghanistan?

Was the discovery of mineral deposits there part of the motive for the invasion, and has it influenced our current military planning?

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

No other nation on Earth has a fraction of the U.S. military obligations.

Don't like it? Cut down our geopolitical, economic, and military obligations. Cut that first. Then decide how large a military you need.

That said, but largest portion of the U.S. military budget is for personnel. The budget for weapons and equipment is but a relatively small fraction.

More right-wing fairy tales. You have no obligations to anybody. Of course you are the biggest player in the NATO and as a German citizen I am happy that you guys protected us from the grip of Stalin after WWII but now the Cold War is over.

To protect your nation a quarter of the current budget would most likely suffice. Anything beyond is simple power politics and wars like in Afghanistan are fought for resources. As I already said, there are easier ways to play this resource grabbing game. In terms of natural resources the Chinese have half of Africa under their control without requiring one tank.

What resources did the U.S. fight to grab in Afghanistan?

IIRC, the U.S. attacked Afghanistan in 2001 due to the terrorist organization based there killing nearly 3,000 Americans on 9-11.

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Michael Moore and a handful of other people against the war in Afghanistan had and continue to hold to the theory that the U.S. and other Western countries want to use Afghan territory to run valuable oil pipelines originating in Central Asia(former Soviet republics), but it's been given little credence by a lot of people in recent years.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

If the current size of the U.S. military budget is so we can seize resources then we are doing a dang poor job of it.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

By the way, in terms of national programs that I'm in favor of the U.S. federal govt. providing the lionshare of funding and oversight for.

Not an exhaustive list.

1) The military (obviously)
2) Space program (plus other science and technology programs)
3) Social Security (with reasonable reforms raising the retirement age and encouraging individual saving for retirement as well).
4) Basic welfare (with lifetime limits unless special waivers are granted)
5) Unemployment benefits (with lifetime limits unless special waivers are granted).
6) Food stamps
7) Basic medical insurance supplemental income assistance (similar to food stamps, replace Obamacare).

Virtually everything else I would leave to state and local govt. or individuals.

 

[bluedana]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

But private and religious charity can't meet the welfare needs of of a vast superpower of 320 million men, women and children. Federal, state and local government assistance programs funded by tax dollars are the only logical and efficient means of giving help to those who need it in the numbers that exist in a nation this enormous. Even in a nation a fraction of our size like the UK there's a need for a healthy, government-run social safety net to make sure that those in trouble have their needs adequately met.

Not to mention the fact that they ensure everyone that is eligible for support gets it. No personal philosophies getting in the way of actually helping those who need it.

Actually, this is not true. And neither is this:

Exactly. If you financially qualify for the help you need and can prove just a few other important things, you pretty much get it except in the rarest of instances. No faith-based or other philosophical stipulations or requirements that private and religious charity organizations have the complete, unfettered freedom to impose on applicants for assistance. More people are turned down by private charity than by the average government agency, and private charities normally have much less money with which to lend aid. Plenty of private charities run out of cash and have to turn people down. Say what you will about government debt and deficits, but it's very uncommon for an agency to run completely out of funding and have to turn everybody away.

In reality, aside from things like unemployment and health benefits, most social services are provided, actually administered, by non profits -- charitable organizations and churches. The government provides grants in some cases, and in other cases, funnels the money to both secular (think: Boys and Girls Clubs) and faith-based (Salvation Army, for example) organizations to get the work done. This includes out of school child care, tutoring, in home nursing, health screening and education, arts enrichment, adoption services, parenting support, food banks and nutritional support, and all kinds of other things. When people say that the government, not "charity," provides these basic needs, they're only half right. In many cases, the government provides the resources, and the non-profits, both secular and faith-based, provide the administration, employees, and boots on the ground. (And, yes, federal law requires non-discrimination for services to the extent that it is not a part of a church organization's actual ministry.)

 

[horatio83]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

If the current size of the U.S. military budget is so we can seize resources then we are doing a dang poor job of it.

Everybody pays such that a few people become rich. War has always been a good scam. In the old days soldiers died for their king, now they die for their corporate overlords. No need for me to quote Eisenhower in this context.
During the Iraq War they did not even try to hide the scam with these cost-plus contracts for Halliburton and so on.

Michael Moore and a handful of other people against the war in Afghanistan had and continue to hold to the theory that the U.S. and other Western countries want to use Afghan territory to run valuable oil pipelines originating in Central Asia(former Soviet republics), but it's been given little credence by a lot of people in recent years.

Yep, the oil pipelines are probably not that important. There is a wide variety of natural resources in Afghanistan with an estimated value of over 1 trillion $.
Of course Afghanistan is not merely an ordinary war fought for control over territory and resources, politics always plays a role. Yet fighting against poor Pashtun peasants instead of dealing with the source of the problem in Saudi-Arabia and Pakistan is hardly wise. It is the equivalent of beating up the young folks in the schoolyard because you are too afraid to fuck with the bullies.
Of course the recent developments with a shift towards going East and attacking the camps in the border region between Afghanistan and Pakistan as well as Western Pakistan can be called a minor improvement but it is still only a fight against symptoms. If anybody were serious about Sunni extremism they'd cut all ties with Saudi Arabia. But the Saudis are an important partner and too valuable for us.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

If the current size of the U.S. military budget is so we can seize resources then we are doing a dang poor job of it.

Everybody pays such that a few people become rich. War has always been a good scam. During the Iraq War they did not even try to hide the scam with these cost-plus contracts for Halliburton and so on.

Michael Moore and a handful of other people against the war in Afghanistan had and continue to hold to the theory that the U.S. and other Western countries want to use Afghan territory to run valuable oil pipelines originating in Central Asia(former Soviet republics), but it's been given little credence by a lot of people in recent years.

Yep, the oil pipelines are probably not that important. There is a wide variety of natural resources in Afghanistan with an estimated value of over 1 trillion $.
Of course Afghanistan is not merely an ordinary war fought for control over territory and resources, politics always plays a role. Yet fighting against poor Pashtun peasants instead of dealing with the source of the problem in Saudi-Arabia and Pakistan is hardly wise. It is the equivalent of beating up the young folks in the schoolyard because you are too afraid to fuck with the bullies.
Of course the recent developments with a shift towards going East and attacking the camps in the border region between Afghanistan and Pakistan as well as Western Pakistan can be called a minor improvement but it is still only a fight against symptoms. If anybody were serious about Sunni extremism they'd cut all ties with Saudi Arabia. But the Saudis are an important partner and too valuable for us.

Oh yeah.

Because the U.S. invading the home country to Mecca and Medina would go over so very well

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

He's got a point about the Saudis. If they weren't a regional counterbalance to Iran across the Persian Gulf and didn't have hundreds of billions of barrels of oil under their sands then the West and America wouldn't be so cozy with the misogynist, repressive rulers of that country and excuse their tolerance and funding of such things as Wahabbism.

If the Saudis had little or no oil we'd have less to do with them than a cat does with a running vacuum cleaner.

 

[Deckerd]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

How did you let him hijack this conversation to his own ends? I can't believe it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Probably because it was already confused and pointless - people were going on about the unique humanity of gametes, for chrissakes.

 

[horatio83]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Oh yeah.

Because the U.S. invading the home country to Mecca and Medina would go over so very well

Asking who profits and who loses from a war is the most natural question in the world. That Halliburton has won is pretty obvious as nobody who has the interest of the public in mind would design cost-plus contracts.

I have no idea how anybody who has a basic knowledge about history could come up with the idea that a war automatically benefits everybody in the very society who wages this war. This is sometimes the case like when you guys freed Europe from the nazis but clearly not in the case of Afghanistan or Iraq.