TWOK deleted scene question

[JonnyQuest037]

Maybe what JonnyQuest037 means is that it was lazy for the movie plot -- which for many filmgoers would be their introduction to the TNG cast and setting -- to build on a leftover story thread from the series, and that Data's reason for finally deciding to install the chip was kind of underwhelming.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. I knew that the emotion chip had been established in the show first, of course. Thanks for clarifying on my behalf, Christopher.

 

[eyeresist]

^But what I mean is that I don't agree that it's just "because it's movies." It's not like it was somehow impossible for the motion picture series format to handle such a story in a better way, because the TOS movie series did handle Spock's evolution in a better way.

Did Spock really develop through the movies? He was cranky and standoffish in the first part of TMP, and befuddled in TSFS, but otherwise, although we like to imagine how various events might have affected him internally, behaviourally he was basically the same throughout, as far as I remember.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Did Spock really develop through the movies? He was cranky and standoffish in the first part of TMP, and befuddled in TSFS, but otherwise, although we like to imagine how various events might have affected him internally, behaviourally he was basically the same throughout, as far as I remember.

His behavior was completely different following his mind-meld with V'Ger, as Christopher mentioned earlier in the thread. By the time TWOK rolled around (some twelve years later), Spock was much more at-peace with his human side and had no problem expressing feelings of friendship and concern for his shipmates' well-being (he was visibly moved by the sight of Peter Preston's charred body).

He was somewhat aloof during the early portion of TVH, but was clearly back to his old self by the time the crew had returned to their own time, and for the remainder of the films, he exhibited the same balanced state of being that we saw in TWOK (his behavior during TFF campfire scene was also a little strange, but I think he was trying to push McCoy's buttons).

--Sran

 

[Christopher]

Personally, I think they wouldn't have been so quick to write out Saavik if Kirstie Alley had continued in the role.

They dropped Alley because of her agent's monetary demands, didn't they? Most Hollywood decisions come down to money above all else, so I'm not convinced that bringing Alley back a second time would've increased their odds of keeping her around.

Yeah, I understand that Alley was asking for more money than DeForest Kelley (Not that she or her agent would've known that, of course). I wasn't really considering the monetary question, though. I just meant that Alley's portrayal of Saavik was more effective and better-received than Curtis'.

And I just meant that being effective or well-received wouldn't necessarily have led the filmmakers to keep her around, not if she was demanding too much money. Money trumps everything else in Hollywood decision-making.

 

[Harvey]

That might've happened anyway due to the need to cut the budget, as most long-running series must do to stay on the air. Perhaps they would've phased out Shatner and/or Nimoy for cheaper leads.

Would they really have done that?
Weren't the leads the least of TOS problems.

From a production standpoint, all problems are money problems. And the lead actors get paid the most money.

Besides, I gather that both Shatner and Nimoy threatened to walk at some point if they didn't get raises, and the producers considered replacing them if negotiations couldn't be worked out. Apparently the Season 2 volume of Marc Cushman's These Are the Voyages says that the producers considered Mark Lenard and Lawrence Montaigne as replacement Vulcans for season 2 if negotiations with Nimoy didn't work out (though this was before they'd been cast as Sarek and Stonn, so they wouldn't have played those specific characters if that had happened).

Shatner and Nimoy were both under five year contracts. Although the production did have Lawrence Montaigne ready to replace Nimoy in season two, walking out while under contract would have set back Nimoy's career considerably (witness what happened to Barbara Bain when she did so on Mission: Impossible two years later). Ultimately, Desilu gave in to almost none of the demands Nimoy made, and the actor still came back.

I'm not aware of any instances where Shatner threatened to walk. He (like Nimoy) received a contractually obligated raise at the start of each season.

Also, ugh, Cushman. Inside Star Trek covers the relevant details over the Desilu-Nimoy feud between seasons one and two. Well worth a read if you haven't in a while.

 

[eyeresist]

Yeah, I understand that Alley was asking for more money than DeForest Kelley (Not that she or her agent would've known that, of course). I wasn't really considering the monetary question, though. I just meant that Alley's portrayal of Saavik was more effective and better-received than Curtis'.

And I just meant that being effective or well-received wouldn't necessarily have led the filmmakers to keep her around, not if she was demanding too much money. Money trumps everything else in Hollywood decision-making.

It really suggests incompetence on someone's part. Why couldn't someone from the studio respond with "Minimum rate for established cast is x dollars, and as Alley only had a small part in one film we can't justify paying over y dollars." Only an absolute moron would then keep insisting on the x amount. Someone somewhere knows what happened....

 

[Ithekro]

Some actors have terrible agents.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Considering that she went on to greater fame on Cheers, I doubt she's kicking herself over not staying with Trek.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Some actors have terrible agents.

It's hard too know if it was really Alley or her agent(s) who asked for more money than her role was worth. Apparently, Alley was to appear as Saavik on TNG in "Cause and Effect," as Morgan Bateson's first officer. Obviously, this would have required changing the amount of time that the Bozeman was displaced, but it wouldn't have impacted the rest of the story; however, Alley again asked for too much money (her part was nonspeaking), so another stand-in was used.

--Sran

 

[eyeresist]

Considering that she went on to greater fame on Cheers, I doubt she's kicking herself over not staying with Trek.

I'll bet there's big bucks to be made on the Cheers convention circuit!

 

[The Old Mixer]

She became a household name doing Cheers, and won a lead actress Emmy. I doubt she would have won an Oscar for doing Trek films, and Joe Six-Pack doesn't even know she was in one.

It's fine to wish that she'd stuck with Trek because you liked her as Saavik, but it wasn't exactly a horrible, career-ruining mistake for her.

 

[Maurice]

Several years as a lead on Cheers plus residuals from the show's being in endless reruns were likely far more lucrative than sticking with Trek would have been.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

And I just meant that being effective or well-received wouldn't necessarily have led the filmmakers to keep her around, not if she was demanding too much money. Money trumps everything else in Hollywood decision-making.

But it's not inconceivable to think that if the Saavik character was more popular, then she would've been judged to be worth more money, yes?

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

But it's not inconceivable to think that if the Saavik character was more popular, then she would've been judged to be worth more money, yes?

Not necessarily. Everything comes down to money. When the Phase II series was in development, there was talk about having Shatner appear as a recurring character before moving on, with the possibility that he could return for guest appearances or cameos when appropriate.

As much as people may think of Star Trek as Kirk & Spock, it's not. No character is so important that his absence would undermine the ability of the writers and producers to churn out more TV episodes or films. About a year from now, the next Star Wars film will be released--a film that doesn't feature Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader in any capacity. How successful it turns out to be remains to be seen, but it's going ahead without several characters whom fans have long-considered essential if Star Wars is to happen.

--Sran

 

[Christopher]

But it's not inconceivable to think that if the Saavik character was more popular, then she would've been judged to be worth more money, yes?

Maybe, but if they didn't think Alley was indispensable after TWOK, they probably wouldn't have thought so after TSFS if she'd done that one too.

 

[Nebusj]

About a year from now, the next Star Wars film will be released--a film that doesn't feature Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader in any capacity.

Are you sure? I thought they'd cast Cumberbatch as Darth Vader for that.