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Spoilers Two steps forward, one step back? Thoughts on the world DSC presents

And you would have Riker smugly sitting next to Picard while the dominions invading earth insisting that Starfleets not a military so they shouldn't get involved.
Which is why I think Archer and co are way more interesting. They're not perfect or perfectly bland. They actually grapple with the whole involvement thing (and get it wrong a lot, but at least they try) and aren't as smug and superior as 24th cent. humans. Also, Archer would probably end up accidentally killing the entire Dominion fleet. ;-)
 
Which is why I think Archer and co are way more interesting. They're not perfect or perfectly bland. They actually grapple with the whole involvement thing (and get it wrong a lot, but at least they try) and aren't as smug and superior as 24th cent. humans. Also, Archer would probably end up accidentally killing the entire Dominion fleet. ;-)

Archer should have been killed the first time he used cowboy logic to mess with a more advanced, older race. So dead by episode 2, basically.
 
I have tremendous respect for Jane Goodall, and I'm all for protecting endangered species, but nonetheless, in the quote you offer, I think she misuses the term "sapient." There is no other species on this planet besides Homo Sapiens that really meets any robust set of criteria for sapience.


It's not about what they look like, it's about intelligence. Do they use tools? Language? Clothing? Do they make art? Do they create lasting structures in their lived environment? Do they go beyond concrete operations to abstract thought? Do they accumulate wisdom and pass it from one generation to the next? That's what makes a species sapient in a way we can relate to.

Your definitions of sapience and intelligence seem much more anthropocentric than mine. Definitions of sapience and intelligence are contested, and change over time.

A century ago, there were Serious Scientists who argued members of our own species were less intelligent than others based upon their gender, class, or racial-ethnic background. There are still some scientists who believe that. Thus, an age-old question: Would we even recognize non-human intelligence even if we saw it right before our eyes?

I'll agree to disagree, and leave things here.
 
Your definitions of sapience and intelligence seem much more anthropocentric than mine. Definitions of sapience and intelligence are contested, and change over time.
They do shift, no question. But if current definitions of sapience are anthropocentric, that's sort of hard to avoid, since thus far humanity is the only species-level data point from which we can generalize. There simply is no other species on this planet that demonstrates intelligence at our level, not even our closest primate cousins. (Past species of hominids such as Neanderthals and Homo Erectus would probably have qualified, but it's hard to be sure.)

You seem to be using sapience in a way that more appropriately denotes sentience (a word that is itself often misused in the other direction, especially in SF). Think about the underlying Latin roots: sentire (to feel) vs. sapere (to know).

Sentience is about the state of having senses, about perception — the ability to be aware of subjective experiences. Lots of species are sentient. Mice. Squirrels. Dogs. Certainly, dolphins and apes, at a fairly high level. It implies the ability to suffer and to feel pleasure, and as such confers at least some degree of rights, and lies at the foundation of the animal rights movement.

Sapience is a whole other matter — it involves apperception. Metacognition. Are you conscious of being conscious? Can you form propositional attitudes concerning the world? That's the kind of intelligence signified by the behavioral examples in my previous post.

This isn't the place for a deep dive into theories of consciousness, of course. There are lots of nuances. Suffice it to say I think both words express important concepts, and it's important to maintain the distinction between them.

It's possible that some species are at the fuzzy border verging on sapience... dolphins and apes are the usual examples. Certainly a fair bit of SF has explored that terrain; David Brin's Uplift novels spring to mind. For the time being, though, humans remain the only clear-cut example.

To circle all this back around to the topic at hand: humans have taken considerable pains to protect the rights of even high-level-sentient species. We don't generally eat those (okay, there are arguments about pigs, but let's shelve those for the moment), and I remain confident that we definitely wouldn't be comfortable eating any species that clearly qualified as sapient, whether it was humanoid or not.

(And, yes, that we would recognize it as such. Certainly, if it arrived in spaceships, there wouldn't be any room for doubt!)
 
What if a space-going whale-type species arrives, which survives in the vacuum of space without a ship or spacesuit?

Kor
 
I question the occasional use of the word utopia, to describe Star Trek.

I don't think Star Trek is utopian. Progressive maybe? A work of enlightenment rationalism? Or revolutionary in the historical sense? These are all very different concepts from a utopia. Perhaps the idea that fans are advocating a utopia should better be framed in different language (as they are not really doing so)? A progressive vision of hope, vs. a normalised vision of today, perhaps? I'm not sure any of Star Trek is utopian in the formal sense of the word. The Federation fights wars, has vestigial social problems, and the show was always made with flawed characters, who could not always embody wisdom - the original writer's guide calls for a story about real humans.

Perhaps the real issue being discussed here is the value of using science fiction to set a better example, vs. using science fiction to show today's paradigm lasting forever. Star Trek imagines a better example of humanity, but retaining all the usual pains of living, and it explored dystopia through the planets they encountered, plus their occasional brushes with the unwise and the insane - each being a philosophical thought experiment.

I think exploring how 'Thing Can Be Better' is actually a powerful tool for a social reformer. The act of imagining the wrongs of today being righted, can itself be an inspirational act. Who, in the 1800s, could imagine a world without absolute monarchy, except those who had read about Republics and knew they were theoretically possible? Empiricism merely tells us what is, but reason allows us to imagine what could be. The normalisation of a piece of progress that people hadn't dared hope for can be an extraordinary thing for people to see. Dr King realised this when telling Nichols to stay on the cast.

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One of my concerns is that in normalizing the problems of today, into the far future, Star Trek may be unwittingly turning into a cynical conservative force. I don't mind cynical science fiction - I can accept a variety of perspectives in different works - but Star Trek dared to imagine a society where racism, unemployment and poverty were consigned to the dustbin of history, for example. While people have argued for a Basic Minimum Income for centuries, and pilot studies have been conducted, ask a member of the established order and they will be dismissive that change will ever happen - like every other expansion of rights before; the vote, ethnic equality, gender equality, LGBT equality, etc, the issue might just be one of imagination, and we will never know without trying. Star Trek once imagined the continued expansion of our rights as a matter of fact; but now it imagines active interference in foreign affairs, the assassination of alien Heads of State, suicide bombers, the contemplation of genocide.

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At the moment there is a resurgence in literature extolling the virtues of the enlightenment and scientific method, arguing it has incontrovertibly proven itself as a tool of human progress. For a while it became fashionable to cast doubt on these forces. Star Trek resolutely imagined their natural extension into the future in eras where that was not fashionable. By almost all measures of progress, humanity is improving - in fact, the danger right now might be that while this is happening, people are more sceptical than ever, due to a media that presents only the bad side of current affairs. Will Star Trek be one such media?

I don't think Star Trek should ever aim to present a utopia, but then that was never the argument of DSC's critics anyway, the debate was just framed for them in those terms.

Think of this as one more literary technique in the arsenal of a writer.
 
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but now it imagines active interference in foreign affairs, the assassination of alien Heads of State, suicide bombers, the contemplation of genocide.

None of this is at all new to Star Trek, and as a series Discovery is far more accepting and inclusive than any before it.
 
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None of this is at all new to Star Trek, and as series Discovery in far more accepting and inclusive than any before it.

Yeah...that's just not borne out by the writing. But if you honestly continue to feel the need to praise the show as the most well-acted, well-written, super awesome bestest Trek show ever...well, whatever floats your boat.
 
Yeah...that's just not borne out by the writing. But if you honestly continue to feel the need to praise the show as the most well-acted, well-written, super awesome bestest Trek show ever...well, whatever floats your boat.

Not borne by the writing? You could cover most of what he came up in Undiscovered Country alone, made 30 years ago. And all you need is to google Star Trek suicide bombers to get a scene of Lwaxana Troi detecting a pair of fishoids prepared to blow up a conference from TNG S2 Ep19 Manhunt. Also made 30 years ago Geez. Try harder. A lot harder, please.

I've been watching Star Trek since the early seventies and watched every series, movie since then, read comics, books, watched stage plays, even acted insome etc. I think I've watched enough to make a reasonable comparative analysis. And a comparative analysis with everything else I've watched since then as well. The good. The bad. The ugly. Unlike many I don't idealize past iterations, or dream of a perfect Star Trek I've worked out in my head. I just watch what comes and take it for what it is. I learned doing so doesn't ruin the new for me by being overly attached to the old. Its worked for me. Obviously it doesn't work for everyone.

Come on, do us dinosaurs have to battle this out? Its tough enough having to carry this guy around on me all day, but I can do it if I have to..
 
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Star Trek once imagined the continued expansion of our rights as a matter of fact; but now it imagines active interference in foreign affairs, the assassination of alien Heads of State, suicide bombers, the contemplation of genocide.
This is not new to Star Trek at all. "Journey to Babel" springs immediately to mind, as well as "The Enterprise Incident" for espionage, "Private Little War" for interfering in foreign affairs, and on and on.
By almost all measures of progress, humanity is improving - in fact, the danger right now might be that while this is happening, people are more sceptical than ever, due to a media that presents only the bad side of current affairs. Will Star Trek be one such media?
Star Trek, as art, reflects the times. Thus far I do not believe it is showcasing the bad side. I think it is showcasing very real problems that have afflicted humanity for many years (long before Star Trek's inception) and continue to explore them in the art of the times.
 
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