Twelve Reasons I Love Star Trek Into Darkness

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by BillJ, Jun 6, 2014.

  1. Franklin

    Franklin Vice Admiral Admiral

    Aug 22, 2006
    In the bleachers
    Actually, I love the opening of STID exactly because it shows how inexperienced and reckless Kirk still is after a year in the chair. The opening scene is full of stupidity and irresponsible behavior for a leader. Wonderful, deliberate, entertaining, and delightful, stupidity and irresponsibility. A perfect contrast to a 36 year-old TOS Jim Kirk, who would've tried to save those people, too, but not that way. A cock-sure 26 year-old Kirk who "hasn't lost a crewman, yet," would pull exactly that stunt. Kirk always had some hubris and felt invulnerable to varying degrees. But that scene on Nibiru was hubris without temperance, and he may have mixed feeling invulnerable with feeling immortal. Brilliant scene.

    It actually vindicates all those at the end of ST09 who said he wasn't prepared to captain the Enterprise. From what he did on Nibiru, he probably wasn't.
  2. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

    Sep 27, 2013
    No matter where you go, there you are.
    ^ His arc in STID is of course all about him learning to be a real leader. Which makes total sense for an officer of his age and experience and character, in every respect but one.
  3. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    Coulda, woulda, shoulda. I'm not interested in them. I'm interested in the one that actually is there. And Franklin gets it right, for the umpteenth time.
  4. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

    Sep 27, 2013
    No matter where you go, there you are.
    Good for you. :techman:
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

  6. nightwind1

    nightwind1 Commodore Commodore

    Dec 28, 2010
    Des Moines, IA
    I can remember lots of times in TOS when Spock and McCoy were bickering and Kirk didn't do a damn thing.
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Pfft. Those don't count. ;)
  8. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Oct 13, 2013
    California, USA
    I don't need 12 reasons to love STAR TREK: Into Darkness. The one suffices:

    It's good.

    It's damn good. It's entertaining popcorn fare that I wish TOS could've been like, right out of the box. Not that The Original Series isn't great, I love the campyness of it and the "theatre" experience it reminds me of, alot of the time, due to its limitations. Now, I know that J.J. Abrams has made it known to all that he's not a STAR TREK fan. Well, I find that a little hard to believe, based on the evidence presented to us, so far. These ReBoot movies - good stuff! Of course, I realize his first love is STAR WARS, so I understand his not being there to direct STAR TREK "Three." But I really feel he should be on the set, directing it. Now's not the time to bail out, when you're on a winning streak, you know? Don't break the spell ...

    We need that J.J. Abrams magic!
  9. Franklin

    Franklin Vice Admiral Admiral

    Aug 22, 2006
    In the bleachers

    I used to like the frustrated look Kirk would get on his face, sometimes. Sorta like, "Here we go again." He probably learned over time that the best thing to do most often was just let them go at it and get it overwith.

    Edited to add: If Pike had lived, Kirk probably would've been his first officer for the entire first five year mission, and maybe all of the second. By then, Kirk's relationship with Pike would've turned into the type of deep affection that Spock Prime had for Pike Prime after serving on his ship for thirteen years. If in later years, Pike had gone on to meet the fate of Pike Prime, it would've most likely been Kirk doing what Spock Prime did in "The Menagerie". I always found that an interesting contrast between the two universes. Pike being so important to Spock in one, and Kirk in the other.
  10. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    It is, thanks (especially since I wasn't addressing anything but what we actually got onscreen). :techman:
  11. drt

    drt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jun 5, 2013
    I'm pretty sure the "I was never really a Star Trek fan" (or however that quote goes) was part of the same Paramount marketing concern about Star Trek insularity that also led to the similarly distancing "not your father's Star Trek" tagline.
  12. Yanks

    Yanks Commodore Commodore

    Jul 6, 2011
    NX01 Bridge
    Never at the detriment of the mission.


    This is a valid point. The kid is green when it comes to experience. But as I stated above, I have more problems with Spock than Kirk. Kirk did voice his displeasure (although not loudly) Spock and Uhura just blew him off.

    ...again... the reason the military has rules that prohibit relationships such as this in the same chain of command.

    And just how selfish and un-Star Fleet is Uhura's whine?

    "At that volcano, you didn't give a thought to us. What it would do to me if you died, Spock. You didn't feel anything. You didn't care. And I'm not the only one who's upset with you. The Captain is, too."

    Didn't she kiss him on the helmet and send him on his way? Don't Star Fleet Officers understand the risk?
  13. Franklin

    Franklin Vice Admiral Admiral

    Aug 22, 2006
    In the bleachers
    I've always wondered how good the movies would've been if he had been a big fan. ;)

    (Given he's such a big SW fan, if karma really is a bitch, watch his Star Wars be full of nothing but fanboy fanwank. "Only I know what Star Wars really is, and this is movie is mine, mine, all mine! It's my way or I take my mystery box and go home!" ;) )
  14. martok2112

    martok2112 Commodore Commodore

    Oct 8, 2013
    That has always been my concern ever since Nemesis. Even though Nemesis is my favorite the Next Gen era movies, it is highly flawed, and a large part of it I attribute to John Logan (co-writer) who said he was a bigtime Trek fan, and wanted to see the Enterprise do things it hadn't done before. This is fine by me, to an extent, but I do think his inner fanboy got just a wee bit carried away, and it resulted in a movie that was largely unpalatable not just to most Trek fans...but to the average movie-goer.

    So we'll just have to wait and see if Abrams' inner fanboy rears its ugly head for Star Wars VII.

    Thank God I'm not a fan of anything anymore. :)
  15. Malaika

    Malaika Captain Captain

    Jul 1, 2012
    also, no one seems to consider here that if Spock truly had a death wish (that is what Uhura questioned) then any officer would have the right to question him in a dangerous mission. It's his casual statement about them having the 90% of chances to die that was the last straw for Uhura and even Kirk was like 'geez thank you'
    would Spock help his crewmates if they were in danger or would he just let them all die just to follow unreasonable rules? Could his seemingly implied PTSD be a problem for the mission? I don't know but I think that the LAST thing their team needed was someone with a death wish or whose logic would result in them taking unnecessary risks.

    technically, though, both Kirk and Spock could be considered emotionally compromised. Kirk especially due to what happened to Pike, as showed by his behavior when they 'capture Harrison' and the way he started to punch him repeatedly to avenge Pike... totally uncaring of protocol and being professional. Harrison had surrendered and had just saved them all. He served no threat to them in that moment. Kirk beating him was absolutely gratuitous and him abusing his position for a personal reason (he was angry because he held Harrison responsible for killing Pike. He even said it)

    with the way the guys keep acting so unprofessional in these movies, it always amaze me that people can nitpick about Uhura's behavior and call her 'whiny' or selfish. Ironically, she was the least directly affected in her job by her feelings than the men, circumstances considered.
    Even when Spock was in danger in that volcano and she believed that he'd die there, she still did her job at her station (what were McCoy and Scotty doing away from sickbay and engineering, again?)
    EVEN when they save Spock and beam him back to the enterprise, she didn't leave her station to run to him with Kirk and McCoy. She had to ask Kirk from her station if Spock was essentially alive.. and even then, she was doing her job by communicating to her commanding officers the activity of the volcano and thus the fact that Spock's device had worked.
    The kronos mission too. I didn't see her running to her boyfriend to see if he was fine, seems to me that her first priority was helping their captain that might have been injured and she dragged his a$$ out of the line of fire with Spock. You did see instances where it's obvious that she did worry for Spock and, viceversa, he surely didn't look cool as a cucumber when she asked him Kirk to let her talk with the klingons (the way JJ zoomed on his face spoke volumes to me) and essentially risk her life. But they never stop each other from doing their duty (he even told Kirk to not interrupt her) or only care about their boyfriend/girlfriend.

    .. yeah, but using your logic then Kirk shouldn't be allowed to be friends with Spock or anyone there.

    He doesn't have a girlfriend but he's the least professional one.
    I may also remind you that while Kirk is not Spock's 'whiny girlfriend' HE did whine about Spock's behavior for.. the whole movie? Even more than the afore mentioned girlfriend of his. And he did that even in front of their commanding officer! (Pike) How are you going to comment that, then?
    Not only he went against the prime directive, not only he lied in his report of the mission and expected his vulcan first officer to lie for him (along with the rest of the crew, well knowing the risks) but when busted about it instead of taking responsibility of his actions he actually blames Spock for his cultural inability to lie and he makes offensive comments about his vulcan side in front of Pike and other officers.
    Do you realize that by referring to Spock the way Kirk did, he might have been accused of being xenophobic towards an alien member of his crew? How is that professional for a captain of a starship were not all the officers are humans?

    This is not my reasoning though. I don't care about this stuff, honestly. Nitpicking about the characters being professional or not in a star trek movie is not my priority as I realize that this is not a documentary about the nasa and I can't expect the writers to make me relate to these characters without them being allowed to show their feelings, in some way. These movies are so fast paced I can't expect 'quieter' moments that would allow the characters to interact with the others. Of course they have to kill different birds with one stone.

    I'm just saying that if you want to apply your rigid 'military rules' to Uhura, you might as well start to judge the male characters with the same standard.

    actually, when Uhura asked Kirk 'two minutes', Kirk said 'ok' and then he even supported her in the argument with Spock saying that she was 'right' (plus his comment about Spock's words not being 'a love song'. He was clearly trying to help his friend along with his girlfriend)

    He did allow the argument. Spock also willingly participated to it... (and even instigated it, tbh, because he heard her comment at the beginning very well and he didn't need to ask her if she had said something, unless he wanted her to talk with him)

    except this is not the army or the nasa.
    the trek franchise has hinted in more than an occasion that it’s not against the rules for officers to have relationships on the ship, no matter their rank. If you're gonna forbid romantic relationships then, using your logic, the dudes shouldn't be allowed to make friends either. Don't tell me that Kirk&Co are never unprofessional or not affected and influenced in their job because of their personal relationships with their friends. It would be a blatant lie.
    Just think about the things that these characters had done in the name of friendship and then came back here and complain about Spock and Uhura having feelings for one another

    Who is to say that in a futuristic utopia-ish society, workplace romance is a no-no? Perhaps it’s fine and allowed. After all, NASA is already having to deal with the potential sexual health of astronauts as they ponder prolonged space flight. May not be unprofessional at all at Starfleet. That view may simply be a remnant of our puritanical society that Starfleet outgrew. - Roberto Orci
    it's not against the rules. And if it's not against the rules, then it makes no sense to complain about the characters doing something that is not allowed.
    I had the impression, actually, that the crew knows that S/U are dating and no one cares. e.g., Sulu's comment in the shuttle when he said 'sorry' to Uhura for having to leave Spock there. Uhura and Spock kissing in engineering or in the shuttle well knowing that Sulu was there (everyone is too comfortable), Kirk asking them if they could work together, in front of the crew. He wouldn't have done that if he didn't know that their relationship was a public thing and allowed.
    No one cares (well, aside you LOL)

    you call it 'whine', I call it a normal discussion one can have in a relationship (this weird thing)
    the way you talk about it, you seem to miss the point that they do have a relationship and thus she isn't just having monologue for the sake of it. Not to even mention the function that their discussion has for the narrative, because if it weren't for his girlfriend then our dear Spock (a supposed protagonist with Kirk) would have essentially no chance to remind us that, hello continuity, in the other movie vulcan got destroyed and his mother died and we can't pretend it never happened and he might be even possibly experiencing PTSD (he did, it's written in the comics. But if you don't read them you don't know because the movie did a poor job showing that)

    Also, Uhura is no Chapel, you know.
    If Spock replied and explained his feelings to her, it's because he obviously wanted to and he needed to because he has his own personal 'selfish' (since your definition of selfish is having feelings in a relationship...) reasons to do so.
    So stop projecting, I guess, and talk on the behalf of characters (both kirk and spock here) that didn't seem to share your opinions anyway.

    also, friendly reminder that this conversation also happened
    Spock: Captain.
    Kirk: Not any more, Spock, first officer. I was demoted and you were reassigned.
    [they get into the elevator together]
    Spock: It is fortunate that the consequences were not more severe.
    [Kirk sighs to himself]
    Kirk: You gotta be kidding me.
    Spock: Captain, it was never my intention to...
    Kirk: I'm not Captain. I saved your life, Spock. You wrote a report, I lost my ship.
    [the elevator doors open and Kirk starts walking off with Spock following him]
    Spock: Commander, I see now I should have alerted you to the fact that I submitted the report.
    Kirk: Well, I'm familiar with your compulsion to follow the rules, but you see, I can't do that. Where I come from, if someone saves your life you don't stab him in the back.
    Spock: Vulcan's cannot not lie.
    Kirk: Then I'm talking to the half-human part of you, alright? Do you Understand why I went back for you?
    [they are interrupted by Captain Abbot]
    Captain Abbot: Commander, Spock? Frank Abbott, USS Bradbury. Guess you're with me.
    Spock: Yes, Captain.
    [Abbot walks off and Kirk looks at Spock]
    Kirk: The truth is, I'm gonna miss you.
    [Kirk waits for Spock to say something, but Spock says nothing, Kirk sighs and walk away]
    is Kirk selfish and whiny too, then? and when did these two actually have a friendship on screen that would justify his behavior? This scene happened after a movie where they went from 'i want to kill you' to mutual respect, yet Kirk expects Spock to be.. human and his friend under his terms. And he gets frustrated by Spock essentially being himself and doing his duty/job?
    You label Spock's girlfriend (someone with whom he DOES have a relationship and thus every possible realistic reason to take her feelings into consideration) as whiny and selfish because she worried for him as she thought he was being suicidal (and it also made her, understandably so, question his feelings for her) .. but apparently Kirk questioning Spock's ability to have feelings for him, when from Spock's pov they might not even have a personal relationship, is perfectly fine?

    seems to me there is a bit of double standard here when it comes to romantic and platonic relationships. You can possibly be the most unprofessional and emotional (duty and off) person when it comes to a friend but God forbid you have feelings for a significant other? uhm ok :confused: (this reminds me of the whole 'Spock is OOC with Uhura because apparently vulcans have no feelings. But then him being emotional with the dudes and crying for someone he didn't even consider a friend for 90% of the movie and being homicidal is logical' :lol:)
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    This is spot-on, also I believe it is why Marcus sent Kirk after him. He hoped that Kirk's feelings for Pike would affect his judgment. Which actually fits the character, as we've seen in episodes "The Conscience of the King" and "Obsession".
  17. Keeper

    Keeper Commodore Commodore

    Nov 16, 2007
    Land of Illusion
    I didn't say that. I remember a couple/few times he reined them in with a "Not now..." in the past. This incident didn't happen, as has been clearly pointed out numerous times, at a time requiring full concentration on the mission, they were in transit and as such some off topic chatter wasn't in violation of any protocols, nor did it represent something we'd never seen occurring before in teh canon.

    Modern militaries.

    Un Star Fleet... perhaps. But totally Human. ;)

    That's all true, but I think you, (and some others in the past) have missed what it was she was truly angry about. I don't want to just blurt it out as it was very nuanced, meant to be picked up on by the viewer, and I don't want to spoil that moment.

    I'll just say rewatch the volcano scene again paying close attention for an event concerning Spock/Uhura immediately after the situation is defused. A specific moment...
  18. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

    Mar 10, 2010
    Help us, Lawrence Kasdan.

    You're our only hope.
  19. Yanks

    Yanks Commodore Commodore

    Jul 6, 2011
    NX01 Bridge
    Malaika & The Keeper, thank you for your thoughtful responses.

    I'll have to respond later this evening or tomorrow.
  20. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Nov 5, 2008
    King Daniel Beyond
    A few more from me...

    Khan's teleport to Kronos
    His arrival was incredibly badass. The Terminator-style crouch (none of that beaming from sitting to standing which annoys the heck out of me), the booming thunder (1000x more awesome in the theatre than at home). And the realization that he rematerialized somewhere very far away.

    Out of his depth in engineering, getting the job done but clearly struggling, trying to take responsibility for anything and everything... it was a small role but a memorable one. And of course, his fourth-wall bending reaction to "go put on a red shirt" was awesome.

    Frenemy Khan
    During the space jump and fight from the cargo bay to the Vengeance bridge, my brain kept going "OMG Kirk and Khan are a TEAM!" One of those AU twists (culminating with Kirk and Spock in the warp core) designed to screw with longtime fans' heads.

    Kirk (via Scotty) shot first. Was it a huge mistake? Would Khan have eventually betrayed him as explosively as he avenged Kirk's betrayal?

    Science Officer 0718
    An android? Cyborg? Trekverse Universal Soldier? Whatever he is, he's damn cool.

    Big Fucking Ships (another extra nerdy one)
    The massive 16-deck saucer core, enormous shuttlebay and engineering sections on the Enterprise, and the ridiculously huge hanger 07 on the Vengeance. Yes, the reboot ships are much bigger than the old ones, and no it definitely was not unintentional or ignorable.

    London's Calling
    Khan's theme is my favourite of the nuTrek soundtrack.