Twelve: I will miss him terribly.

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Dashiell Mirai, Dec 30, 2017.

  1. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Commodore Fleet Captain

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    For me I think one of things that impacted my view of Capaldi at first was I most knew him from the movie "In The Loop" and I loved the movie and his character but at the same time that character doesn't translate well to being "The Doctor." I had forgotten he had been in both "Who" and "Torchwood" episodes before. It kind of makes me think about Scott Bakula as Captain Archer. I loved "Quantum Leap" and thus was excited for him to be the next captain yet at the same time I still had a hard time not seeing or expecting Sam Beckett.

    Jason
     
  2. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It was Attack that made me a Colin Baker fan. A top 5 favorite Classic who story for me, easily (and I've seen a decent amount at this point). Talking about Six's run in BF is meaningless when talking about the character, its like if I was bringing up the 70s Marvel SW comics in connection to The Last Jedi. Objective quality aside, it has no bearing on the character we see on screen. So, just like there are no green rabbits in real star wars, there are no penguins or bland british teacher companions in any 6th Doctor adventure. Even if his BF stuff was a miracle (and its not, what I've heard is not up to the level of his good tv stories even ignoring my absolute loathing of the asinine, completely noncanon blue coat), it isn't canon (the fact that Colin baker never dressed like a damn blueberry is enough to show how noncanon BF is, not that its required since if its not on screen its automatically noncanon anyway).

    As for Capaldi, I doubt we'll see any NuWho Doctor but 10 work for BF. David Tennant seems to be willing to do almost anything, so I wasn't surprised that he did a BF project. The 9th will obviously never do it. Matt Smith doesn't seem to be doing anything so I am a bit surprised he doesn't do BF, he must be living off of Doctor Who and Terminator Genesys residuals (he deserves to do more, but unless he's doing some random British mystery show or something he seems to have disappeared after appearing on some netfix show). But there don't seem to be signs of Smith doing it any time soon. Capaldi is older then either of them and I honestly can't see him doing any more DW related projects.

    Also, in case anyone is wondering, no, I cannot see someone say that Colin baker's BF run was any good, much less better then his TV run, without including my opinion on the subject. It just sucks to have my favorite Classic Who Doctor constantly brought down by cheap fanfiction. Frobisher, boring old lady whose name I don't remember, weird companion that time traveled from the 8th's era to the 6ths, bland nurse woman, etc don't exist in canon, period. at least 8th Doctor fans can pretend his BF stuff is in canon because people with similar names to his audio companions were mentioned in his regeneration. Colin Baker's own tV run would make the BF stuff noncanon if it had any claim to being anything but paid fanfiction (professional fanfiction) in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  3. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Its not that good. At best, its tremendously fanwanky, with a fair amount of unimportant side-plots to venture about (mainly the two escapees whose story leads nowhere).

    Of course it counts. If Colin Baker is performing the role of the Sixth Doctor, it bears mentioning. And he did for Big Finish. And from the '80's Doctors' outputs on BF, his material, at least until early '10's, is simply stupendous. His run with Evelyn Smythe is better than anything on 80's Who telly output (with certain exceptions).

    And the blue coat isn't even his permanent suit, so that shows your level of wilful ignorance.

    Brought down? Get ahold of yourself. BF's story output didn't worsen any Doctor's reputation in the slightest.

    Fine, then don't listen to his BF run. But contrary to your belief, Colin Baker's rather proud of his TV run, as well as his BF run. He just feels his take on the role wasn't as nearly refined as he wanted it to be. BF allowed him to flex his muscles and expand his characterization to where he wanted to take the role. Calling his output with BF names because you personally don't like them is your own business, but fans who have ventured to them, like myself, have experienced a fuller, more enjoyable and entertaining journey with Six than just two seasons on TV. And your last sentese just makes no sense - there's no "rivalry" between the BBC and BF but what you make. Your strange contempt for BF is virtually of your own making.
     
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  4. Steve Roby

    Steve Roby Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    There's no such thing as canon in Doctor Who.

    Licenced fiction is not fan fiction.
     
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  5. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I obviously don't agree. :shrug: It has a good story, and the main characters are good. Its not really "fanwanky". Outside of the scrapyard and Telos (neither of which I knew about when I first saw the episode), its not like its filled with references, and what it has works just as well if you have no idea they're references to anything.

    He never wore a blue coat, and if you think so that's your choice but also a complete fabrication. I can show you his birth and his death on video, and guess what? No blue coat. Saying "Well, he took it off right before he died and put his old coat back on", which is BF's way of trying to fix their stupid costume issue, is pathetic (plus he had no adventures outside of what we saw, obviously). You might as well consider those terrible (based on clips I've seen online) "Stranger" videos Colin Baker did as canon, since he at least appeared on video playing something approaching The Doctor and it even had Nicola Bryant. As for the other stuff, 80s Doctor Who was mixed, but still better then BF. As someone who suffered through The Marion Conspiracy, The Spectre of Lanyon Moor and fucking Bloodtide (if this was canon it would be the worst goddamn 6th Doctor story), I prefer Mel to the annoying, argumentative senior citizen schoolteacher.

    ES wasn't the reason TSoLM or BT sucked (although she was the reason that TMC was barely listenable), but she didn't help. The only good thing related to 6th/ES stories is that I listened to the stories through an online subscription the Public Library has, so it was legal but BF didn't get a penny from me. I mean, they probably got money when I bought the Last Adventure physical release from Amazon, but I got that as a collector thing to look at mostly (although I did listen to the stories) and ES isn't in it anyway. I could listen to even more of BF's Doctor Who stories through that service, but I can also just go to fanfiction.net and probably get better stories that are just as legit.

    Fanfiction can't bring down The Doctor's reputation. It can make some fans bring up stupid junk when discussing a Doctor, though. Like Blue coats and terrible companions.

    The only really good thing about BF's Doctor Who stuff is the fact that the Doctor actors are putting in good performances. The material is crappy fanfiction, but The Doctors (well the real ones, not someone like Briggs who gets paid to do the shittiest 9th Doctor impression I've heard in a paid product) put in good work from what I've heard. Colin Baker deserves more work then what he got. Even if the material is awful and noncanon, I don't think badly of him or any of the Doctors for taking the work. They can all be proud of their performances, even if the actual stories are trash.

    The 6th Doctor's real run was cut short, but it was good. He had 10 actual stories. You can like other stuff, but its not a journey. The Doctor never did any of the things BF said. I get not wanting to acknowledge that. I don't like to think about how the old Star Wars expanded Universe isn't canon anymore. But you can like something without acting like its relevant to a franchise. I may hate BF, but I'd be less inclined to fight against it if some of its fans didn't treat it like Doctor Who gospel. Some guy found a way to take money from a niche audience and the BBC and many DW actors went along with it. Nothing wrong with that, as long as its not treated like anything but what it is.
     
  6. Steve Roby

    Steve Roby Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Yep. No point engaging. Bye bye.
     
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  7. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, I'm not bothering either. kirk just can't comprehend that BF counts in DW as anything else.

    I will say this though: Since Big FInish has proper licence from the BBC to do their stories, therefore their stories are not anymore fanfiction than anything Moffat has ever done, I will continue to bring it up whenever Six or Eight are concerned, since BF contributed to their characters more than they didn't. Whatever kirk's irrational hatred for BF might derive from, I don't give a crap, but BF is not just some fanfiction company (and I say this as someone who doesn't exactly like their recent output a lot), so no matter what he says, until the BBC says otherwise, yes, Old Sixie did travel with a Professor called Evelyn Smythe. And a lovely lady she was, too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  8. Steve Roby

    Steve Roby Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Several Doctors had some of their best stories through Big Finish, very much including Six, and there've been some great companions, too, Evelyn certainly included. I wouldn't care to live in a world where the Eighth Doctor never had those adventures with Lucie Miller. They've also expanded the world of Torchwood considerably, and moving beyond Doctor Who, I could take seriously an argument that their Blake's 7 audios are on average superior to the original TV series.

    The Sixth Doctor's era didn't end messily in the 1980s. The Eighth Doctor's era didn't end after one movie and a webisode. All the classic Doctors are still vital, ongoing concerns. How is this not a good thing?
     
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  9. Dashiell Mirai

    Dashiell Mirai Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Crikey. For this forum, this is practically a catfight. Easy, boys, easy!
     
  10. Steve Roby

    Steve Roby Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Catfight? All I see is a couple of us agreeing that Big Finish has done some cool stuff.
     
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  11. Dashiell Mirai

    Dashiell Mirai Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I was joking, but yeah, I misread the posts. Pay no attention to the sleep-deprived man behind the curtain! Carry on, lads.
     
  12. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, to use a SW example, in my mind Luke Skywalker will always be married to Mara Jade. The difference is, unlike you, I can acknowledge that what is true in my mind is not true in reality (although at least my thing was true at one time).

    So unless it shows up on screen, the 6th Doctor never changed his coat, and never traveled with a old, narcissistic nag named Evelyn.
     
  13. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Star Wars does have a canon. Doctor Who doesn't.

    Or, if it did, which it never admited to one, it definitely includes Big Finish, since it referenced Big Finish characters. Knock it off.
     
  14. Emh

    Emh The Doctor Premium Member

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    Putting the canon debate aside (and reiterating what everyone else said, that no such thing exists for Doctor Who), nothing has occurred on screen that disputes what took place in Big Finish, as oppose to Star Wars which has clearly dropped the Extended Universe.

    There's nothing to say that The Sixth Doctor didn't wear a blue coat for a time. There's nothing to say he or any of his other incarnations didn't have many more adventures with many more companions for many more years. The Doctor Who universe is much more maleable than Star Wars or Star Trek or any other universe, thus it's not hard to believe that Big Finish slides in with the show's events without much problem.

    That being said, I've never understood why anyone gets all up and arms about how other people view extra material for a show or film universe.
     
  15. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    He just doesn't like it when its being considered around characterization topics, like they're not consequential or something. Which is nuts, considering how the show not only doesn't exclude the peripheral material, but goes out of its way to acknowledge it.
     
  16. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Does it not seem really stupid to hate the 6th Doctor's coat so much they pretend he took it off, then eventually changed his mind and put it on right as the "camera" saw him die? Really damn convenient, don't you think? Its almost like people who hate the 6th Doctor wanted to change his coat for marketing purposes, but realized he dies in his canon costume so had to pull something out of their ass. Thats ignoring the fact that Blueberry Doctor is the worst design, canon or not, for a Doctor. I'm sick of assholes whining about the coat. Like it or not it happened, and its the only thing the 6th Doctor ever wore. Also, I can use your logic to say that the 8th Doctor spent 300 years naked or that the 5th spent a few decades traveling in a chicken suit and by your logic I'm totally correct because nothing said they didn't.

    As for why I get up in arms, its because its bullshit. When I'm talking about my favorite Classic Doctor, I'm talking about the real version. Not the shitty version some assholes made up to cater to people who hate the real 6th Doctor. You don't have to like him, but pretending like the BF shit is The Doctor is a complete "fuck you" to both Colin Baker and his entire actual run.

    Nope. A few characters in canon share names with BF characters. But, there is nothing to indicate that the people the 8th Doctor mentions before regenerating are anything like the BF versions. Regardless of the intent, The Doctor mentioning Charley Pollard,C'rizz,Lucie Miller, Tamsin Drew, and Molly O'Sullivan doesn't mean the people with those names in canon have any relation to the idiots in the bad paid "fan"fiction. We just know that people with those names exist. In canon Charley could be a Sontaran (which would be a lot better then what she actually was, a twit) and C'Rizz could be a hipster human artist from the US circa 2004.

    One bad decision by the person who wrote Night of the Doctor doesn't canonize the shitty cash grab garbage that is Big Finish. At most its Steven Moffat giving that crap free advertising. So, I think its you who needs to knock it off.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  17. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    No, you need to knock it off, beause you're freely disrespecting fans who want to be all-inclusive with their Who tastes.

    Nobody argues against the TV canon. We all know that Colin Baker's essential run was his TV run. We're not morons. However, much to Colin Baker's delight, the character did have further life on audio, and a successful one at that. And a "fuck you" to Colin Baker? Tell that to him on twitter - I dare you.

    Honestly, I could respond and nill every quote you post, but I also realize this is pointless. So here's the thing: I'm going to ignore your opinion on everything Who-related on this forum, since that's exactly what you are seemingly doing. Thank you and goodnight.
     
  18. Dashiell Mirai

    Dashiell Mirai Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Ok, Jesus, now it's actually a catfight.
     
  19. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Can we just get back to Capaldi leaving? All I did say is he was a better defined Doctor than Colin Baker's was on TV, anyway.
     
  20. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I wasn't personally saying a "fuck you" toward him. I'm saying that people dismissing his TV run because of Big Finish are the ones giving him a "fuck you". I'm glad he made some more money of off Doctor Who, he deserved it. I don't have negative feeling toward him (or any of the Doctor/companion/etc actors) from taking jobs from Big Finish. Someone who deserves it might as well make money off of that crap. Colin and the other actors put their all into the stories I've listened to, I can't fault them when it comes to the performance of the actors. They got paid to do a job. I'm fine with that.

    Regardless of whether you're ignoring this or not, I like how me having a different opinion is ignoring your opinion. I'm not ignoring your opinion, you're entitled to it. I don't care if people like Big Finish. Its when people start making sweeping statements about Doctor Who or any of The Doctors based off that crap that I have an issue.

    He's really not. They're both fairly well defined based off of the runs they had. Capaldi's was longer, but most of the extra time went to his companions (mostly when it was The Clara Oswald Show) so it kind of balances out, honestly.