Twelve: I will miss him terribly.

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Dashiell Mirai, Dec 30, 2017.

  1. Dashiell Mirai

    Dashiell Mirai Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2017
    I just got done watching Twice Upon a Time, and, as always follows a regeneration episode, I'm filled with the kind of melancholy only a beloved tv show can cause. I very much liked Twelve, even from the start of his tenure. Others didn't seem to react so favorably, but I thought he reminded me very much of Four. (The man, the legend!) I just wanted to know what my fellow Whovian-Trekkies thought of him.
     
  2. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Location:
    In many different universes, simultaneously.
    I liked Capaldi. I didn't like Clara, and I hated the childish stories. I have no opinion about Bill, since I didn't watch the stories she was in.

    There were times when Capaldi's voice reminded me of Tom Baker.
     
    Cutie McWhiskers likes this.
  3. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Location:
    Washington State, USA
    As The Doctor I think Capaldi was great. I liked his version. if he hadn't been saddled with both Clara and a pretty obviously burned out producer/showrunner, I think his era could have spectacular. As it is he had some great episodes, but overall his run is a mixed bag. A lot of stuff I like but also some of the absolute worst of NuWho. As I and many other people have said before, he's the Colin Baker of nuWho. A great Doctor who had a lot of things going against him (although I think Colin Baker had the reverse problem with companions, starting with a good one then downgrading, although Mel was nowhere near as bad as Clara).
     
    werdegast and Timewalker like this.
  4. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Location:
    Kavala, Greece
    Capaldi was perfect casting. Just not an ideal match-making with Moffat. Like every other actor sans Sylvester McCoy and occassionally Colin AND Tom Baker, his very performance could and did salvage even the most mediocre episode (he's the sole reason to watch Hell Bent, other than Clara obviously).

    You know, it seems to me that Moffat would rather have had five full series with Smith's Doctor. I think his plotlines would've made more sense by the end, and the Tranzalore card would've been played out similarly to how he did the Cybermen three-parter (well, not really, but, you know, gimme a break here).
     
  5. Emh

    Emh The Doctor Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Location:
    Durham, North Carolina
    I loved Capaldi, I just wish he had much better writing to work with. Series 8 is almost a complete bust aside from "Deep Breath," "Mummy on the Orient Express," and "Flatline." Series 9 and 10 are considerably better but have their fair share of terrible clunkers like the Zygon two-parter, "Hell Bent," "The Return of Doctor Mysterio," and the trilogy (although I personally love "Extremis" if taken on its own).

    If the writing had been as strong as series 4 for Tennant and series 5 and 6 for Smith, then I would've loved the Capaldi era a lot more and The Twelfth Doctor would rank considerably higher among my favorites.
     
  6. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Location:
    Kavala, Greece
    I do think series 9 was closest to giving a stellar season, but it severely dumped down by the rubbish arc. Series 4 and 5 had pretty consistent and engaging arcs, that paid off in the long run. It wasn't until after the River Song mystery was resolved in series 6 that Moffat was left bereft of story arcs to tell, at least good ones, or ones that paid off in a satisfying way.

    Like or hate Doctor Jesus (and I hate Doctor Jesus), even the series 3 arc with the Master paid off better than anything from series 6 and onwards.
     
  7. Samurai8472

    Samurai8472 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2007
    Series 7 was weird. We had 5 episodes of Amy and then another season premiere in the middle with Clara.

    Different titles. New costume for the doctor and by the end of 2013 everything except the TARDIS interior and Clara stayed.

    Oh and Amy's five episodes had the title sequences get darker and darker and someone messing with the DOCTOR WHO fonts

    "Oh it's dinosaurs in this episode. Lets make the titles scaley"

    Nothing was consistent. I also think Jenna should have had a proper full season with Smith and not just 8 episodes + 50th anniversary special
     
  8. maneth

    maneth Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Location:
    maneth
    I must admit I didn't like Capaldi at first, his Doctor seemed too burned out and cynical. The guitar improved things a lot and inserted the sort of zany humor the show's famous for and by the end, the 12th Doctor was pretty much unrecognizable. I loved Eccleston, so it took me nearly two seasons to get used to Tennant. Smith was okay but never more than that for me, his ADHD antics irritated me too much, and he had far too many monsters under the bed/in the cabinet/dollhouse stories. Frankly it was a relief to see him go. I liked Clara OK with Smith, certainly preferring her to Amy and Rory to start with, but as I've said before, I think she outstayed her welcome.
     
  9. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Rear Admiral Commodore

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    I liked him but it took me awhile to get use to him but I find I have been that way with every new Doctor. Granted I started being a fan in 2005 so I don't know how I would have reacted to the classic era, Doctors. One thing I really hope though is that if people think his era was a failure it doesn't sour future showrunners from every going back to a old doctor. I want them to keep mixing it up and that doesn't just mean gender and race but age as well. Tv needs more shows with older actors who get to do something other than be the mom or dad to the main characters.

    Jason
     
  10. Cutie McWhiskers

    Cutie McWhiskers Captain Captain

    Capaldi was great. Wish he had better stories as well, but personality and cynicism were refreshing and engagingly different - the show has always been about showing big differences between incarnations.

    Bill was cool overall.

    Sad to see her get killed, though her return in TUaT was explained well and making her return even more bittersweet.




    Agreed!
     
  11. Steve Roby

    Steve Roby Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2002
    Location:
    Ottawa, ON Canada
    Peter Capaldi was the best Doctor we never had.

    Moffat's fixation on lame arcs (the impossible girl, am I a good man?, etc) meant that the main character of the show was secondary to some pseudo-meaningful big question. The stuff about the Doctor's name didn't mean anything, the Trenzalore/death of the Doctor stuff had a weak payoff, and the stuff Capaldi was lumbered with instead of Smith was no better.

    We got one of the UK's best actors who was also a longtime Doctor Who fan. He could drop in little bits reminiscent of classic era Doctors and make them feel right. Too bad about the stories he was in. And it's not Clara or Danny or Bill or Nardole who was the problem. It's fairy tales, the Jesus Doctor, completely unnecessary continuity callbacks, and really bad arcs. It sounds like Chibnall is going for a more serialized story, which is one improvement; the other was the RTD idea from the first couple of series of simple, vague references like Bad Wolf or Torchwood that eventually mattered.

    Years from now, will there be any of his episodes as the Doctor that I remember as fondly as Fires of Pompeii or Torchwood: Children of Earth, in which he played other characters? I don't know, and that's not a good thing.
     
    Allyn Gibson and Emh like this.
  12. Emh

    Emh The Doctor Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Location:
    Durham, North Carolina
    A fair question and I've wondered the same. For me, I think at least "Flatline," "Last Christmas," and "Heaven Sent" fit that bill but not much more, and certainly not as many as Tennant or Smith.
     
  13. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Location:
    Washington State, USA
    Personally, if we're talking about Capaldi episodes I'll remember as classics, i'd go with: (only listing what I'd consider "classics", there are ones I like a good deal, like the Me duology, that don't make a list of "classic" stories but I still liked a lot)

    Time Heist
    The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar
    Heaven Sent (His best episode, even if the episode after it was just ok)
    The Husbands of River Song
    World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls
    Twice Upon a Time

    I could probably list more for the 9th, 10th and 11th Doctors, but the 12th still had points of greatness, even if he also had my most hated NuWho story (the Zygon two parter), my most hated companion (Clara) and a pretty ridiculous amount of crap episodes.
     
    Emperor-Tiberius likes this.
  14. Emh

    Emh The Doctor Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Location:
    Durham, North Carolina
    On that, I completely agree. I'll never watch "The Caretaker," "Kill the Moon," or "In the Forest of the Night" ever again (damn series 8 was brutal aside from "Flatine"). Others I'll give another go, but I wouldn't be surprised if a few of them are tossed onto that list.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  15. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2003
    Location:
    San Francisco Bay Area, CA
    Capaldi was not the reason I didn't like the recent stretch of Doctor Who. In fact, one of the things I was wondering to myself after watching the special was I wonder what Capaldi would have done in the Eccleston season, because he reminded me a lot of Eccleston with the comic relief but dark tendencies. With better writing his seasons could have been so much better. Also, Capaldi was great in Children of Earth so it definitely wasn't him.
     
  16. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Location:
    Ireland
    Capaldi came to the role with arguably more clout and cred than any other actor to play the role apart from John Hurt. He was following my own personal favourite in the role but as I was a fan of his, I was a little surprised that it took me some time to warm to his portrayal of the Doctor. I think that was probably because Moffat didn’t quite know how to write for him initially.

    However, by the second season Moffat was writing to Peter’s strengths - his own obvious personal kindness, his love of music etc - and when he grew his hair out and chilled, he was less Malcolm Tucker in space and every inch The Doctor. He finished up there at least in my top 3 and, as with every Doctor of the new era, has left me wanting more.
     
  17. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2000
    Location:
    South Pennsyltucky
    Steve Roby said basically what I'd have said.

    In years to come, I suspect the episode with Capaldi's Doctor I'm most likely to rewatch will be "The Day of the Doctor," with its two seconds of "attack eyebrows."

    A few days ago, Facebook Memories brought up an article from The Atlantic I'd shared in 2013, about how Doctor Who wasted and failed Matt Smith. You could take that article today, replace the words "Matt Smith" with "Peter Capaldi," and the article would still work. Capaldi was saddled with some truly awful material, and he elevated it and made it watchable, but the underlying narrative was still awful.

    I sometimes had the feeling that Capaldi and Moffat weren't on the same page. Too often I felt like Moffat and his team were writing not "the Doctor played by Peter Capaldi" but "the Doctor played by an old Matt Smith." The characterization seemed misconceived from the start. The "Am I a good man?" arc could have worked, but that required a writer who cared about the implications of his own storytelling rather than a writer who wrote for the moment. I thought Capaldi would have asserted himself more as a creative force behind the scenes. He gave up other work opportunities to do Doctor Who, and I thought that would force Moffat to up his game.

    Capaldi, if he does Big Finish work in a few years, may well redefine his Doctor in the way that Colin Baker redefined his. Sadly, for Capaldi, a redefinition like that should never have been necessary.
     
  18. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Location:
    Kavala, Greece
    I'm not sure Capaldi was as maligned in the role as Colin Baker ever was. Heck, I don't think anyone was ever maligned in the role like Colin Baker was. He never showed the true extent of his Doctor's breadth, never had a solid classic besides Vengeance on Varos, and even then arguably so, and he was fired from the job. From the sounds of it, Capaldi left on his own accord. And, he did get to play a lot of different facets of the character, developed him quite a bit in a way that Big Finish can certainly expand upon. But what BF did for Sixie is continue to evolve him, mainly as a way to bring Colin Baker (and thus, the other Doctors), giving Sixie a kind of run he never enjoyed on TV.

    Of course, what they did for Eight goes without question. He was hardly defined by the books, with only the comic strips having any indication as to how that Doctor should be.
     
    werdegast likes this.
  19. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Location:
    Washington State, USA
    I agree that the 12th didn't get as maligned as Colin Baker, getting fired because the person in control of the BBC both hates Doctor Who working on and (from what I've heard) Colin himself will probably not be beat. Plus the 12th doctor actually got to regenerate, the 6th just said "carrot juice" then banged his head on the TARDIS control panel. So both Colin Baker and the character of the 6th Doctor will probably remain the most screwed over Doctor.

    Also, when it comes to story quality, to be fair Colin did get more then just Vengeance on Varos, in my opinion at least. Attack of the Cybermen remains my favorite 6th Doctor story, The Mark of the Rani was pretty good, The Two Doctors was a decent story and gets elevated by 6 and 2 being awesome (the fact that they're also my two favorite classic Doctors also helps), and The Mysterious Planet and The Ultimate Foe were good. Honestly, the only 6th Doctor stories I outright dislike are Timelash and Revelation of the Daleks. Its unfortunate that we only got 10 stories with Colin Baker, but it was enough to make him my favorite Doctor.
     
  20. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Location:
    Kavala, Greece
    I like Attack and The Two Doctors myself, but they're not the best of Who in a long while. Six's best, IMO, is with Vengeance, Mindwarp and maybe the other two, but its still not a solid five-out-of-five case because there's a lot of shit in all of them.

    So if Big Finish does get to work with Twelfth, at least Capaldi would have had a character to work with, he'd only just fill in the gaps and expand upon him, like the Fifth and the Seventh, who were more defined than Six was. Six's run in BF is a miracle, as its Colin Baker finally realizing the role the way he wanted - complete with the regeneration story he was robbed of on the telly.