Tuvix

[Praetor]

I would equate Janeway's situation more with the Doctor's in 'Latent Image.'

 

[Unicron]

To be honest, I don't really see why you think my arguments for saving Tuvix would mean that Janeway had to tell Ensign Ballard to return to the Kobali. To make myself clear, I think Janeway was wrong with killing Tuvix, because he was a sentient being with the will to live and the right to decide about his own life. In the same vein, Ensign Ballard had the right to decide what she wanted to do; whether she wanted to remain on the Voyager or to return to the Kobali. It didn't matter if she was a 'completely new individual with a completely new life' or if she was still Ensign Ballard. The point is, she should be the one to decide about her life, not others. Not Janeway, not the Kobali.

You make a good point, and the reason I mentioned ATA is that it's one of the few stories with a problem somewhat similar to that of Tuvix's. Ideally it should have been her choice and no one else's, but the circumstances unfortunately didn't allow it to be purely her choice. Had she chosen to remain on Voyager, Janeway would have been compelled to protect her against the Kobali. Had she left with them sooner then she did, it would mean essentially letting her human persona die. And she had the added burden of her memory being damaged and not being able to remember some aspects of her human life. The Kobali might have given her a second chance with good intentions, but their process of reviving Ballard also harmed her. And both of her choices involving some degree of harm, though perhaps less dramatically than with Tuvix's situation.

 

[freak]

Exodus: you cracked me up on your first comment! !

As for the episode "Tuvix", I have to say I couldn't stand him either..I thought he was creepy, and just downright butt ugly! I thought Janeway's decision was justified, however, if you have really grown quite fond of someone for a while, it's a difficult decision whether or not to let them go.

 

[Loqutus]

This episode just proves that ANYTHING can be turned into Star Trek, even garbage. What an abomination

 

[Anwar]

Anything can be turned into anything else on TV. Not just with Trek.

 

[Luther Sloan]

So if I wasn't conceived yet, does that make me pre-dead then?

Anyways, Tuvok and Neelix were not exactly dead. They were just a transporter re-adjustment phone call away. And having them live on within Tuvix was selfish on Tuvix's part because he is essentially letting two distinct personalities be sacrificed at his expense. Sure, he could have said that they lived on in him. But we know that would be a lie. He was a new combined being and not two distinct personalities anymore. I know that if I was Tuvix, I wouldn't hesitate to step into the transporter. Why? Well, I wouldn't want my continued existence to be at the expense of two other distinct lives that were full and rich. What a selfish individual he was. Tuvok and Neelix had full complete lives with family and friends and where invaluable members of the Voyager crew. If Janeway were to let Tuvix live because of his selfishness, she would essentially be extinguishing two valuable crew members and their unique lives for one uncertain crew member who seemed only selfish or concerned for his own life.

So yeah, I definitely stand by Janeway's decision in this matter, thats for sure.

Oh, and I don't think it is murder either. Janeway was simply restoring two of her crew members from an unnatural accident. Now, if Tuvix was conceived by accidental natural means, from Neelix and Tuvok impregnating a woman while drunk at a party or something. That would be different. Tuvix would not exist at the expense of Neelix and Tuvok's continued existence then. It would simply be Tuvok and Neelix's natural born bastard child.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Arguing a side successfully means taking in all considerations, weighing them, and letting the most crucial rise to the top. When you look at only some of those considerations, it is easy to be swayed to one side or another.

Many of the analogies chosen are unfit, because they don't accurately match the situation. Like two hostages for one life. Or choosing one person over another.

The fact of the matter is that Tuvix should not exist. He was not a natural mutation or incarnation. He was a mistake, an accident, a tragedy of two lost lives. And the last element is the key... because at first the thought was that those lives were lost. But the EMH figured out how to retrieve them with a high degree of certainty.

Let's assume this variation on the scenario: Tuvix materializes. Everyone is stunned, including Tuvix. An accident has just occurred, with Tuvok and Neelix now "gone". Tuvix is in their places. It is a mistake. Belana checks for a transporter malfunction, figures it out, then says to the captain "The transporter circuitry suffered an energy surge that cross blended Tuvok and Neelix. I've got both of their patterns from the last beam-out. And I can reassemble them from this combined entity, but we'll have to act fast." Janeway would say "Do it!" And Tuvix would be dematerialized, then Tuvok and Neelix materialized. Tell me... if it happened THIS way, isn't it unlikely that we would be discussing it in this thread? A horrible error was corrected and the two original people survived.

So what's different from that scenario and the one that was depicted in "Tuvix"? The Tuvix being got to live longer. People got to know him. The time to figure out the retrieval took longer. But the situation is still essentially the same. A mistake was made that needed to be corrected. Now... if the risk was very high that the dematerialization would fail, one could well argue that it wouldn't be worth doing. However, if the odds were very high that the dematerialization would work, you'd get back two very valuable members of the crew, then... well, to me the risk is worth taking.

And what of Tuvix? He was indeed a fascinating character. A curious blend of two very different species. Yes, he was afraid to die... desperately wanted to live. An instinctual reaction to an absurd situation. He couldn't be objective to understand and appreciate the two lives that were in the balance. But I believe that things would not be all roses and sunshine for the long run, if he did continue as Tuvix. How does one settle two minds blended together? Where is his real family? Do you honestly think that once they returned to the Alpha quadrant, Tuvok's wife would embrace him? He's a mutant alien. And yet Tuvix has the knowledge and memories of Tuvok. Your wife and family reject you. How do you deal with that? Neelix didn't have any family and was a loner anyway, who does eventually find his place (among fellow Talaxians, becoming a key member for their cause for survival). You're alone in the universe, one abomination that never should have occurred. What kind of life is that? My prediction is that the Tuvix character would eventually commit suicide for being unable to resolve his identity and place in the universe. But... if you have a very good chance of averting this fate, it seems so necessary to do it.

One other thing... if we think of Tuvix as Neelix and Tuvok blended, then he doesn't really die. He is put back into his two basic elements: Tuvok and Neelix. Those elements go back to operating independently, instead of blended together.

Gary 7:

Well, said. Very well said. I am impressed.
My hat goes off to you sir!

 

[Saquist]

"Of Tuvix's and Captains"

​

I'm not a fan of this episode. I didn't like Tuvix and discovering that people liked him was an obvious set up for killing him but that doesn't mean this isn't a fascinating social experiment that if real would raise interesting questions on who could ever have the authority to make this decision.

The first thing that was compelling about this episode was that the Doctor refused to take action that would take Tuvix's life. Of course one might expect a Doctor to have that perspective but the contrast is that no one else spoke up for Tuvix. Today often the doctor is the one performing a similar procedure.

I thought Tuvix was (if possible) more annoying than Neelix and ugly as sin, yet his creation may have been accidental but that should not mean that his life was forfeit. It sounded like the abortion of full grown man. It's an interesting question it poses. Is the life an infant any less important than the life of a full grown man?

Normally Abortions don't threaten the parents life they threaten their life style but this still seems to be a question of who's rights are more important and we tend to massage the answer out in terms of Life and Rights. The fact that the Captain and Kes were women who made the choice is somewhat telling, fascinating and bold because I don't think many people saw the parallel.

I thought Tuvix was a coward. After I learned that two people had died to bring me into the world I would have consented to anything with more than 55 percent chance to bringing them back, leaving behind a hologram of me so that we may know each other and asking for a little time to rap up my affairs. Infants don't have this choice or ability and often no voice and as cowardly as Tuvix was unlike an infant we could hear his voice.

This was perhaps another case of the 80 percentile rule in which it is said when a wrong is about to committed normally about 80 percent are on lookers that never take any action all whether they think the action is wrong or not.

I often wondered if this were not on a starship how different would this be? Janeway needed Tuvok on her journey, he was an integral part of her command staff but he was also a confidant and best friend. Was this another case of a story Of Mice and Men? I think so. Tuvix had the choice taken from him. More importantly he had his life taken away from him and I think that is the lesson of the book Of Mice and Men and this episode in a strange way. Like the Dog that was "Too old" to be of any use...Like the mouse in the hands of a imbecile like the Imbecile and his "best friend", Like Tuvix in the hands of Janeway what give them the right? The only common denominator is MIGHT.

So at the end of Tuvix (not pun intended) I was left wondering why does might always make right? Why don't we more often choose like the doctor to do no harm, not to presume what is right for another when a life is in our hands, why does more often than not having the MIGHT means taking a life?

 

[Luther Sloan]

Yeah, but Tuvix's life or continuing existence at the expense of two other lives is not right. Sure all life is sacred and deserves to live. However, in this case: Tuvix didn't have the right to sacrifice two other lives in the process because of his, though.

Tuvix was essentially murdering two distinct individualistic full and rich lives by his selfish desire that his short life is more important than theirs. Especially when Tuvok and Neelix were just a transporter re-adjustment phone call away.

I know if I was Tuvix: I wouldn't hesitate to step into the transporter because I wouldn't feel right that my existence was at the expense of two other full and rich lives.

An abortion is way different. The unborn baby's existence is not living at the expense or sacrifice of two other lives.

That is the difference.

Anyways, here is my complete post on the subject...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3998293&postcount=246

 

[Guy Gardener]

What about all the vidiians that did die because janeway wouldn't let them harvest her crew? dozens of vidiians could have been saved for each crewman that consented to releasing their internal organs into a bucket for their donation drive.

The needs of the many do outweigh the needs of the few right?

 

[Luther Sloan]

I thought the Vidians were awesome villains that were really underutilized within the series.

 

[Saquist]

Yeah, but Tuvix's life or continuing existence at the expense of two other lives is not right. Sure all life is sacred and deserves to live. However, in this case: Tuvix didn't have the right to sacrifice two other lives in the process because of his, though.

Tuvix was essentially murdering two distinct individualistic full and rich lives by his selfish desire that his short life is more important than theirs. Especially when Tuvok and Neelix were just a transporter re-adjustment phone call away.

I know if I was Tuvix: I wouldn't hesitate to step into the transporter because I wouldn't feel right that my existence was at the expense of two other full and rich lives.

An abortion is way different. The unborn baby's existence is not living at the expense or sacrifice of two other lives.

That is the difference.

Anyways, here is my complete post on the subject...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3998293&postcount=246

Murder without will or action?

 

[Luther Sloan]

Murder without will or action?

Saquist:

Yeah, see I don't think it is murder because Tuvix was essentially murdering the existence of two individuals at his own continued life. And the Captain seen that and took the appropriate action.

Tuvix was an unnatural accident that could have been fixed.
Sure it might have seemed that his life was forced to end against his will. But his life wasn't meant to be (despite how unique it was or how precious it is because he is a new individual life).

In other words, Tuvix was a monster that was willing to kill two other people or let them stay dead in order to survive. So his life was forfeit.

An unborn baby is not living at the expense of other lives.

So yeah, it may seem like his life is being taken against his will, but it was a life that was not meant to be, though. It was unnatural and an abomination because it was willing to let two other lives stay snuffed out.


Let me put it to you another way:

It's sort of like a person defending himself in his own home when attacked by an intruder and the only course of action he has to survive is to take the life of the intruder to save himself and his family. Yet, doesn't that intruder have the right to live? Aren't you committing an act of murder?

Janeway's family was being attacked by this new intruder (Tuvix who was willing to let Tuvox and Neelix stay snuffed out or killed). So she did what she had to in order to protect that family (Tuvok and Neelix).

 

[Saquist]

Are any of us qualified enough to decided who's life is more legitimate than anyone elses?

 

[Luther Sloan]

I would have to say in certain cases... yes.
I mean, would rather have a child killer live or an innocent child (if such a choice was presented to you)?

Again, if someone was attacking me in order to kill me, I would say the choice is either going to be me or him. Sure, I wouldn't be proud of taking a life (in a self defense situation). But if I knew I could protect more lives (like my family or other innocents), I probably would do what I could to survive.

Tuvix was an intruder that was content to leave two people dead. His life was essentially killing the lives of those two other crew members. Janeway was simply protecting her family.

As would I if my family was in jeopardy or attacked.

 

[Saquist]

I would have to say in certain cases... yes.
I mean, would rather have a child killer live or an innocent child (if such a choice was presented to you)?

Personally I could never make such a choice.
That child killer could learn to be more and the child could become a killer himself. With out hindsight how could I judge?

Again, if someone was attacking me in order to kill me, I would say the choice is either going to be me or him. Sure, I wouldn't be proud of taking a life (in a self defense situation). But if I knew I could protect more lives (like my family or other innocents), I probably would do what I could to survive.

Well self defense is one thing.
(Personally I'd never take a life period.)

Tuvix was an intruder that was content to leave two people dead. His life was essentially killing the lives of those two other crew members. Janeway was simply protecting her family.

But isn't that self defense?
If self defense is right for you what makes it wrong for Tuvix?

 

[xortex]

It reminds me of the guy who killed his parents and asks for leniency from the judge because he's an orphan.
I would have wrote this episode differently. I would have had Tuvix be the one that wanted desperately to be seperated and Janeway not wanting to or able to because of the risk. Then Tuvix would try to force Janeway to find an answer to his situation or else he would somehow blow up the ship, saying 'I know Humans can be quite clever when properly motivated'.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Personally I could never make such a choice.
That child killer could learn to be more and the child could become a killer himself. With out hindsight how could I judge?

Saquist:

Not saying it is right, but most folks would make their choice based on the evidence at hand and not what is to be or could happen.

Well self defense is one thing.
(Personally I'd never take a life period.

I can understand that. I would try to find a peaceful solution or knock out my attacker first of course if given the opportunity, myself. I'm just saying that if you had a daughter and the only way you could save her life from a mad killer was to take the mad killers life. You are simply protecting your family.

But isn't that self defense?
If self defense is right for you what makes it wrong for Tuvix?

What makes it wrong for Tuvix to self defend himself is that he is essentially letting two other men stay murdered or dead at his expense or existence. He basically forfeits his right to be a descent humanoid being if he lets that happen.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I guess because of the thousands of Swarmies Janeway murdered while tresspassing in their space to keep her crew from being mounted above fireplaces or outright eaten, that she too has basically forfeited her right to be a descent humanoid being if she lets that happen.

Black Kettle syndrome.

Ducane "intergrated" several Janeways (I think that janeway is it's own plural? No "s" required?) in Relativity, I wonder how calmly that proccess followed though that each Janeway, given their past ranting, must have protested insisting on their right to be treated as an individual.

Of course with three Janeways aboard Voyager, which one gets to be Captain?

Timeshare?

 

[DonIago]

Holy dead thread resurrection Batman!

Not being a fan of capital punishment, there's no way I can support Tuvix's murder in this episode, and the "he murdered Tuvok and Neelix first" argument is immaterial to me. Murdering a murderer is still murder.

How much time has to pass before Tuvix has a legitimate right to exist? Nine months, perhaps? Try to imagine living your life with the knowledge that if someone finds a procedure to "fix" you, your life will end.

Yes, Tuvix was selfish, but you know what, if someone told me "we're going to kill you to bring two other people back to life" I wouldn't be sanguine about it either, even if they were my parents or other people I loved dearly. Wow, he wants to live, what a shock! The way people castigate him for having the flaw of wanting to survive appalls me.

Three things could have made this better for me-
1. Janeway authorizes the procedure. Tuvix dematerializes. A big puddle of goo rematerializes. Way to go Janeway, now you've got three dead people.

2. Tuvok and Neelix rematerialize and leave the transporter room refusing to meet Janeway's eyes. For the next few episodes there's a ton of discomfort between them and Janeway because they can't reconcile that she'd commit murder to save them.

3. A less extreme possibility - during the course of the episode -someone- points out that the Starfleet Charter involves seeking out new lifeforms and that the crew signs on knowing they might give their lives to protect new life. Well if Tuvix isn't a new lifeform, what is?