Well that's definitely the defining difference in our opinions. It seems unlikely to me that the characters were killed in the process of creating Tuvix, and then recreated afterwards identical to before with all of their memories intact. I guess it depends how you define them being alive. Clearly all of the cells remained alive, combined to create a new being. The new being seemed to have a combination of all of the memories and traits of the two separate characters, which personally makes me believe they were combined, and not just recycled into a new being altogether. In the first part of the episode he refers to himself as "we", so I think he still felt their two minds within him still alive, rather than being a third consciousness that happened to have their memories (although that's arguable, as you may not notice any practical difference in that scenario).
The line between "dead" and "gone" when it comes to what became of Neelix and Tuvok while Tuvix existed IS blurry, definitely. However, I still maintain that since they were
effectively dead, and the only way to bring them back was by killing Tuvix, it wasn't the right thing to do. Tuvok and Neelix "died" in an accident. No one was to blame, and certainly not Tuvix.
Unfortunately the ending is far too brief to give us any information on what happened, and if Tuvok and Neelix both remembered being Tuvix, or felt like suppressed minds, or don't remember any of it.
Interesting question, actually. It is a shame they never thought to touch on that in a later ep.
Regardless, I'm not saying the Doctor was wrong in his decision. But I don't believe Janeway was wrong or evil in what she did either. I don't feel like Tuvix died any more than Tuvok and Neelix did. I think he lived on in them just as they lived on in him. I'm not sure the episode has enough information to prove either way, but that's how I see it. If you disagree with that assessment, then your opinion is perfectly reasonable too.
Fair enough. I DO disagree, obviously, since I consider Tuvix death to be a real one, just as Neelix and Tuvok's effective deaths earlier were real, since they were gone (the difference being that their lives were taken in an accident). And I do find the actions Janeway took to be wrong, and immoral.
Plus I think the Doctors stance is being misrepresented.
The EMH didn't refuse to do the proceedure because he felt it was morally wrong. The EMH clearly states he refused to do it because the Hippocratic Oath prevents him from operating on a patient that refuses treatment. Tuvix refuse to be un-joined, the EMH couldn't operate. It has nothing to do with the EMH's personal view points. He never stated them.
I don't think so, personally; I think the Doc's stance is implied by his refusal to proceed, and by Picardo's delivery of certain lines.
The Hippocratic Oath would not apply if Tuvix were not a living being. He could not be a "patient" if he were not a living being. Furthermore, he could not refuse treatment (to the point where a doctor would refuse to operate simply
because the patient refused) if he were not sentient. This, again, is the crux of the issue for me: I don't see any way around the idea that Tuvix is a living, breathing, self-aware sentient humanoid life, who is murdered at the end of the ep. Furthermore, the Oath isn't just "don't operate on someone who doesn't want it", it's "Do No Harm." The intent of the scenes with the Doc's refusal to proceed were clearly meant to include that aspect.
This was me when I saw this thread
It's a classic.
It was a very tough decision and Janeway's reaction at the end of Tuvix proves that she didn't "like" it either but felt that it was the best path to take. The look on her face was not that of a "cold blooded murderer"
Finding an action extremely distasteful/depressing/soul-crushing/etc. doesn't change the nature of the action. She may be filled with regret and guilt over it, but she still murdered a dude.
Besides Tuvix was not a good character and it really would have sucked to loose Tuvok... and Neelix. So the writers threw that in there just to stir things up... give us something to argue about 10...20 years later.
Whether or not Tuvix was a good character, and whether or not it would have sucked to lose Tuvok or Neelix, are subjective questions pertaining to what we, as viewers, would have wanted (or not wanted) to see from the show. It's not relevant to the discussion of whether or not Janeway killing Tuvix was the right thing to do or not, in-universe.
Families and loved one's rights can override individual rights and do in the case of organ donation. And I think a case can be made that Tuvok and Neelix were donating their organs(unwillingly) to Tuvix. Today in some systems, family members may be required to give consent or refusal, or may veto a potential recovery even if the donor has consented.
Family members do have rights.
Brit
Excuse the forthcoming long-windedness, but I want to make sure my position is clear.
I don't know that much about the laws in this area, but what I'm gathering is that you are saying a family member can prevent an organ donation from occurring even if the deceased had consented to be a donor? I find that bizarre, but putting it aside: There is no situation in real life, involving real organ donation, that is comparable to this. An organ donation is an event that must take place; if the family successfully stops a donation from taking place, they have prevented a doctor from performing an operation that would save someone's life, but in order to do that, the doctor would have had to actively perform another operation on a dead body
first. The family has prevented that from taking place.
If Neelix and Tuvok are "organ donors" in this case, the accident that created Tuvix caused them to donate their organs instantaneously, without the intervention of any doctor. This is IMPOSSIBLE in real life. What Tuvok's family would be (in theory) doing by getting Tuvok back would be the equivalent of going to the patient who received the organs AFTER the transplant had already been performed, and
demanding they give the organs back. That is the analogy here: Tuvix was already
alive and well. The only way to bring back Tuvok and Neelix was to reach into Tuvix and
reclaim the organs, killing him, when he himself has done nothing, since the "organ donation" only occurred because of a freak accident.
Now, a theoretical moral argument can be made that by preventing a needed transplant from even happening in the first place, the family would be "killing" the person who needs the transplant (and frankly, I would be aghast at anyone preventing an organ donation that would save a life simply because they don't like the idea of their dead loved one's organs being used that way, whether the law allows it or not), but they are not actually petitioning anyone to go up to a healthy person and murder them, so it IS different. And if you want to tell me that there are laws allowing THAT in real life, you're going to have to provide a link or something to prove it. (I will note, however, that if such laws DO exist, I would find them just as wrong as I find Janeway killing Tuvix).
So no, in this case, family members and friends do not have the right to demand that a sentient, healthy man
give up his life to bring Tuvok and Neelix back. If you really believe that somehow, Tuvix isn't really "a sentient being who is being killed" at the end; if you find what I just put in quotes to be
untrue, then fine. I personally don't see how one could arrive at that conclusion, but fine. However, if the premise that Tuvix IS a living sentient being is accepted, then killing him was murder, and no member of the crew or family member of Tuvok or Neelix has the right to tell Tuvix he must die.
I do not believe it was.
