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Tuvix

That still wouldn't have made sense.

Around the same time as Warlord faith body slid into Buffy and the Aftermath of that was Buffy thought her boyfriend was a creep because he couldn't "Just tell" it wasn't her soul in her usual body any more while he was fornicating with it.

There was 6 episodes till Kes tried to jump ship with that sexy shuttle bandit...

isn't Neelix following along with the warlord breaking him up with kes AS crazy as Tuvix thinking that he was still going steady with the Ocampan?

Kes showed up crying in the middle of the night and convinced Janeway who was on the fence as to whether to murder Tuvix because she wanted her boyfriend back. Kes was the deciding factor, her undying love for Neelix murdered Tuvix.

UNDYING NEVERENDING love!
 
It all comes down to the math.

One decision you get 2 people, the other decision you get 1 person.

This, although not just for the reasons of cold numbers. It was a transporter malfunction that took away two lives, and just happened to create one combined one. But the mistake needed to be corrected to restore the two lives that were taken, regardless of how lovable they made Tuvix. Janeway made the right call, and she was clearly torn about the decision. For all we know, Tuvok and Neelix might have kept the memories of Tuvix, just as Tuvix got the combined memories of Neelix and Tuvok.
 
Neelix is too slow to think at her speed too.

Remember the entirely massive commitment of 5 to 6 months he was afraid to committing to when he was told that he had to shag her over and over again until he knocked her up in Elogium? 16 years later I can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel as far as child support payments go, but Neelix would have been the father of a fully actualized adult he could look in the eye after 6 months.

I wonder why Tom didn't take a crack at her?

Or did that all happen on Voyager After Dark?
 
I think the good thing with this episode is that it is an interesting premise and it really makes you think what is the moral and ethical thing to do and this is what good science fiction is supposed to do. Get people to think.
 
I like Tuvix way more than I like Equinox, Part II. But the thing for me was that by the end of the episode I really liked Tuvix and when I went through and rewatched the episode last year I still did so it was hard to see Janeway kill him at the end right after he's pleading for his life. However, I see why she did it. I may not like it but if she hadn't done it we would have lost Tuvok and that incredible episode Riddles in the sixth season.

And froot aren't we also forgetting that Tuvok was spying on Chakotay for Starfleet and he was still kind of bitter at the time. But Janeway should have slapped him, I agree.
DON'T INSULT TUVOK OR YOU WILL BE WHIPPED :D
 
tuvix was less annoying than neelix. that alone should've justified saving him
 
I think the good thing with this episode is that it is an interesting premise and it really makes you think what is the moral and ethical thing to do and this is what good science fiction is supposed to do. Get people to think.

Yes it's one of those times when the premise is quite stupid sounding but it generates so much discussion it's actually a very good episode. I remember when I started watching the new Dr. Who and in the middle of an ep I thought, "this ep is about rhinoceros people invading the earth's moon" which of course sounds incredibly dumb, but it was gripping and fabulous.
 
Was Riddles supposed to explain the inner thinking underneath the episode Tuvix?

Nuvok wanted to stay Nuvok, damn whatever else he used to be, but it was Neelix who guided a discussion which reasoned Nuvok into committing suicide in favour of the return odd some abstract idea of "Tuvok" being more valuable than "Nuvok".

There was a ticking clock. But Nuvok went under the "knife" with in the limits suggested by his executioners. But would everything have repeated if Nuvok decided not to make it so easy for th Doctor to murder him?

How come the Doctor was willing to kill Tuvix but situated that killing Nuvok was a-okay? How hard would it be to explain the morality of this issue to the Doctor as being almost identical to what happened in Tuvix that Janeway may have had to undergo the the doctoring herself again since her hologram doesn't think of himself as a butcher?

What about the hundreds of personalities jailed inside Seven of Nine? Including a scared Seven year old little girl who is being used as a well for this borg bookkeeping architecture to keep the flesh mobile?
 
I like Tuvix way more than I like Equinox, Part II. But the thing for me was that by the end of the episode I really liked Tuvix and when I went through and rewatched the episode last year I still did so it was hard to see Janeway kill him at the end right after he's pleading for his life. However, I see why she did it. I may not like it but if she hadn't done it we would have lost Tuvok and that incredible episode Riddles in the sixth season.

And froot aren't we also forgetting that Tuvok was spying on Chakotay for Starfleet and he was still kind of bitter at the time. But Janeway should have slapped him, I agree.
DON'T INSULT TUVOK OR YOU WILL BE WHIPPED :D

Oh, yeah, I mean, I understand why Chakotay said that. This was pre-"Resolutions," and Janeway and Tuvok were a lot more buddy-buddy back then. And Chakotay and Tuvok were pretty cold with each other, especially with "Twisted" and that whole business with the traitor. Totally makes sense.

I was just shocked Janeway didn't get kind of angry over that comment. She was definitely upset, but not mad.

And yes, I just plain old love my Tuvok. :lol:
 
And froot aren't we also forgetting that Tuvok was spying on Chakotay for Starfleet and he was still kind of bitter at the time. But Janeway should have slapped him, I agree.
DON'T INSULT TUVOK OR YOU WILL BE WHIPPED :D

Oh, yeah, I mean, I understand why Chakotay said that. This was pre-"Resolutions," and Janeway and Tuvok were a lot more buddy-buddy back then. And Chakotay and Tuvok were pretty cold with each other, especially with "Twisted" and that whole business with the traitor. Totally makes sense.

I was just shocked Janeway didn't get kind of angry over that comment. She was definitely upset, but not mad.

And yes, I just plain old love my Tuvok. :lol:

Ah, Twisted, Kenneth Biller's "Threshold" I still say he wrote the more good episodes of Voyager than Braga did.

And one thing about Tuvok, "Shall I flog them as well."
Gotta love him.
 
The real question is, would Kes have not dumped Tuvix like she did Neelix?

Considering how Kes was in hysterics by the end of the episode, I think she would have dumped him pretty quick if Janeway allowed him to live. Kes found Tuvix freaking creepy, and she said as much.

exodus, I don't think Janeway was alone on this one either. Tuvix himself was helping out, along with Kim and the Doc. They invented the treatment. They weren't sitting around allowing Tuvix to develop on his own on purpose just to be jerks.
Exactly.
Plus, what were they going to do with him otherwise? lock him in the solitary until a cure if any could be found. Tuvix interacting with the crew was inevitable but yet, not one person protested against his disjoining. Not one! By not doing so, the whole crew showed support for Janeway.
 
Frankly speaking, I think it's rather disturbing that Janeway goes through with killing Tuvix at the end. He makes an impassioned plea for his right to be, and I think he was correct. He did nothing wrong; he was a victim of circumstance and developed his own feelings for the people around him and tried to make himself useful however he could.

It's cold-blooded murder, and I think the doctor's refusal to help her makes that rather clear. That it was done purely for selfish reasons (We see that Tuvix can conduct himself well in official capacities) makes it so much worse.
This and a million times this.

It all comes down to the math.

One decision you get 2 people, the other decision you get 1 person. Maybe if the ship were overcrowded and Janeway needed to cut down on crew she had to feed she would have swung the other way.
Wow, you're saying this like it makes the whole thing right. By that logic countries which face the problems of overpopulation should just execute a percentage of their population. :wtf:
 
Frankly speaking, I think it's rather disturbing that Janeway goes through with killing Tuvix at the end. He makes an impassioned plea for his right to be, and I think he was correct. He did nothing wrong; he was a victim of circumstance and developed his own feelings for the people around him and tried to make himself useful however he could.

It's cold-blooded murder, and I think the doctor's refusal to help her makes that rather clear. That it was done purely for selfish reasons (We see that Tuvix can conduct himself well in official capacities) makes it so much worse.
This and a million times this.

It all comes down to the math.

One decision you get 2 people, the other decision you get 1 person. Maybe if the ship were overcrowded and Janeway needed to cut down on crew she had to feed she would have swung the other way.
Wow, you're saying this like it makes the whole thing right. By that logic countries which face the problems of overpopulation should just execute a percentage of their population. :wtf:

Wow and you are saying that Tuvix's rights outweigh Tuvok's and Neelix's (not to mention Kes' and Tuvok's families.

That is really cold blooded to cause that much hurt to that many people for one amalgamated individual who wouldn't die anyway but simply be reduced to his original parts. :wtf:

Brit
 
Wow and you are saying that Tuvix's rights outweigh Tuvok's and Neelix's
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm talking about equal rights for every individual. You are saying Tuvok and Neelix somehow have more right to live than Tuvix.
 
It all comes down to the math.

One decision you get 2 people, the other decision you get 1 person. Maybe if the ship were overcrowded and Janeway needed to cut down on crew she had to feed she would have swung the other way.
Wow, you're saying this like it makes the whole thing right. By that logic countries which face the problems of overpopulation should just execute a percentage of their population. :wtf:

Well that's about the most hyperbolic leap I've seen on this bbs. One minute we're cutting an impossible fictional alien person into two people and the next thing.. it's Pol Pot! It's like turning Threshold into an abortion discussion, no unwanted children should have to be brought into this world.
 
Frankly speaking, I think it's rather disturbing that Janeway goes through with killing Tuvix at the end. He makes an impassioned plea for his right to be, and I think he was correct. He did nothing wrong; he was a victim of circumstance and developed his own feelings for the people around him and tried to make himself useful however he could.

It's cold-blooded murder, and I think the doctor's refusal to help her makes that rather clear. That it was done purely for selfish reasons (We see that Tuvix can conduct himself well in official capacities) makes it so much worse.
This and a million times this.

It all comes down to the math.

One decision you get 2 people, the other decision you get 1 person. Maybe if the ship were overcrowded and Janeway needed to cut down on crew she had to feed she would have swung the other way.
Wow, you're saying this like it makes the whole thing right. By that logic countries which face the problems of overpopulation should just execute a percentage of their population. :wtf:

Wow and you are saying that Tuvix's rights outweigh Tuvok's and Neelix's (not to mention Kes' and Tuvok's families.

That is really cold blooded to cause that much hurt to that many people for one amalgamated individual who wouldn't die anyway but simply be reduced to his original parts. :wtf:

Brit
What rights?

Tuvix's rights weren't "outweighing" Tuvok's rights, or Neelix's rights. Tuvok and Neelix have no rights because they are dead. They are gone.

They do not have a "right" to be resurrected. If they CAN be, then yeah, great, go for it. But bringing them back to life by destroying another sentient being... that's something that the UFP and Starfleet principles would be against, and it's something I would be against, personally. If THAT is what is required to bring them back to life, then it's too much. One must accept that they died, and move on.

As for the rights of Tuvok's family missing him, or Kes missing Neelix, or the rest of the crew wanting their friends back... sure it sucks, but people do die sometimes. Especially people living on starships traveling through space, with all the danger that entails in Trek.

Missing lost loved ones does not give you the right to murder someone. The suffering of Tuvok's family, Kes, etc. cannot compare to the suffering of the man who is forced to give up his life against his will. Killing him is more wrong - by FAR - than forcing those others to continue to mourn the loss of Tuvok and Neelix.

The notion that sparing rather than killing Tuvix is the heartless decision is preposterous.

The notion that Tuvix "didn't die" at the end of the ep is even more preposterous.
It all comes down to the math.

One decision you get 2 people, the other decision you get 1 person. Maybe if the ship were overcrowded and Janeway needed to cut down on crew she had to feed she would have swung the other way.
Wow, you're saying this like it makes the whole thing right. By that logic countries which face the problems of overpopulation should just execute a percentage of their population. :wtf:

Well that's about the most hyperbolic leap I've seen on this bbs. One minute we're cutting an impossible fictional alien person into two people and the next thing.. it's Pol Pot! It's like turning Threshold into an abortion discussion, no unwanted children should have to be brought into this world.
It's far from being the most hyperbolic leap I've seen on this BBS. Like FAR far, like I don't even have a measurement for it. But that aside...

You were arguing that the "simple math" of having two people around instead of one is paramount in deciding whether or not to end the life of a sentient being who doesn't want to die in order to bring back two people who already died. I think a moderately hyperbole-fueled analogy is more than warranted.

The needs of the many do not curtail the rights of the individual.
 
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