I agree on that comment.
Tuvix -- Moralilty vs Life
- Thread starter chakotay_lover
- Start date
I agree on that comment.
My only problem with it is that there's no evidence to support it.
Let's try a different take on this...in "Rascals" several crewmembers are de-aged due to a transporter mishap. I've been led to believe that TPTB pondered leaving Ro as a child. Now, suppose that Ro had wanted to remain a child, but that there was also evidence that her faculties -may- have been compromised due to the transporter malfunction. Should she be forced to become an adult again because she can't speak for the adult Ro and is effectively holding her hostage?
I'm really tired right now, so possibly not the best example ever. Oh well.
Let's try a different take on this...in "Rascals" several crewmembers are de-aged due to a transporter mishap. I've been led to believe that TPTB pondered leaving Ro as a child. Now, suppose that Ro had wanted to remain a child, but that there was also evidence that her faculties -may- have been compromised due to the transporter malfunction. Should she be forced to become an adult again because she can't speak for the adult Ro and is effectively holding her hostage?
I'm really tired right now, so possibly not the best example ever. Oh well.
Last edited:
It's my opinion because Tuvix did say that Tuvok and Neelix were alive within him. Ok, that could have been meant figuratively except for the fact that at the end of the episode they were back. Imo, that would not have been possible if they were truly dead.
Yeah, just no. I see no connection.
I added something that I did think was relevant.
Sorry if you didn't like the answer.
My only problem with it is that there's no evidence to support it.
Let's try a different take on this...in "Rascals" several crewmembers are de-aged due to a transporter mishap. I've been led to believe that TPTB pondered leaving Ro as a child. Now, suppose that Ro had wanted to remain a child, but that there was also evidence that her faculties -may- have been compromised due to the transporter malfunction. Should she be forced to become an adult again because she can't speak for the adult Ro and is effectively holding her hostage?
I'm really tired right now, so possibly not the best example ever. Oh well.
their personalities were all unchanged.
Morons like worf were the problem who would only take orders from exactly the same personality if it was in a withered 63 year old body... Which is the opposite of his argument as to why Worf chose a withered old man as his Chatacheech (that is spelt SO wriong.) when it was all obviously goning to degenerate into a knife fight really quickly.
Kieko losing her child's love was sad, but when Mile's decided that he couldn't get a backrub form a ten year old girl he just happened to be married with i found it hilarious bu how easily his limits were tested.
It's all abotu perception.
That'll do.
Picasso said "Some people do not think Cubism exists because they do not understand it, on my part, I do not understand Chinese but I still suspect that it exists."
btw, there was a precedent in star trek, ds9 episode facets. jadzia met the former hosts of her symbiont, their consciousnesses were temporarily seperated from her, and possessed the bodies of some other crewmembers. memorable was in particular quark acting as serene mother.
curzon took over odo. i remember the dialogue of sisko with curzon,
sisko: you sound like odo.
odocurzon: i am odo.
sisko: i don't understand. i thought you were curzon?
odocurzon: i am both. the guardian believes it has something to do with my shapeshifter nature. it feels like odo and curzon have been conjoined.
does it not exactly sound like one of tuvix' statements?
odocurzon did not want to end this existence. i have no doubt that anyone here crying that janeway comitted murder, applauded jadzia when she forced curzon to leave odo.
curzon took over odo. i remember the dialogue of sisko with curzon,
sisko: you sound like odo.
odocurzon: i am odo.
sisko: i don't understand. i thought you were curzon?
odocurzon: i am both. the guardian believes it has something to do with my shapeshifter nature. it feels like odo and curzon have been conjoined.
does it not exactly sound like one of tuvix' statements?
odocurzon did not want to end this existence. i have no doubt that anyone here crying that janeway comitted murder, applauded jadzia when she forced curzon to leave odo.
Not the same. Jadzia's opinion on what should happen to Curzon,would be the same as if Tuvok or Neelix could have been asked if they had an opinion about Tuvix. Now when the Symbiosis commission suppressed one of Dax's personalities, briefly murdering it for about 70 years without asking Dqx if it wanted to be whole or lobotomised, that would be the same. It's a question of third party intervention.
As for this word "murder" (of Tuvix) that keeps cropping up, which has been pretty well dealt with, here's another argument: now that Tuvok and Neelix are separated, if you recreate the conditions of the transporter accident exactly, (having kept the orchid in stasis), you should be able to recreate the results. Voila, Tuvix is back. Pretty neat trick for a "murder" victim!
And once again - if Tuvix was murdered, then he was a murderer, or at least complicit in two murders.
And once again - if Tuvix was murdered, then he was a murderer, or at least complicit in two murders.
Actually, I suspect (obviously there's no way to know) that if you recreated the results exactly you'd recreate the -body- of Tuvix but not the -soul- of Tuvix. You'd have a hybrid being, but you wouldn't have Tuvix.
Whatever he was or could have become was destroyed when he underwent the procedure to restore Tuvok and Neelix.
Of course, we never heard T/N indicate one way or another whether they retained Tuvix's experiences in any way, shape or form. For all we know they were left thinking they'd beamed up at the time they were supposed to beam up originally. Granted Tuvix said "they're alive in me" or whatever, but there's no evidence that that was anything other than metaphor, much as I could say "my parents live in me".
Whatever he was or could have become was destroyed when he underwent the procedure to restore Tuvok and Neelix.
Of course, we never heard T/N indicate one way or another whether they retained Tuvix's experiences in any way, shape or form. For all we know they were left thinking they'd beamed up at the time they were supposed to beam up originally. Granted Tuvix said "they're alive in me" or whatever, but there's no evidence that that was anything other than metaphor, much as I could say "my parents live in me".
And all those babies who kill their mommies during child birth?
Last edited:
^ Well if I can understand the implicit argument of that cryptic statement, and assume it relates - a relation which frankly hasn't been demonstrated - Tuvix made a conscious, adult choice to preserve his life over theirs. Babies aren't capable of such choices. Furthermore, childbirth is the natural propogation of the species. sometimes one or both die. Sometimes a parent has to choose which baby to save from drowning. Transporter blendings are industrial accidents actively sought against from happening - and involve two unrelated, adult individuals with presumably, rights to exist separate from each other.
But I don't think he was a murderer, is the point. Because restoring the two men was not murder. And I do fail to see how people can defend Tuvix's right to exist while blithely ignoring the rights of the two men. Ignoring the rights doesn't just make them disappear. So far, I have yet to be convinced that Tuvix's rights were violated any more than the two's already were by Tuvix's willful blindness. In other words, Tuvix was in no position to argue from individual rights. His very existence depended on the suspension of those rights. And I for one have yet to be convinced, and at this point I doubt I will be, of his "right" to continue to exist at the cost of those two men. It doesn't wash.
And as for the argument about Tuvix's "soul" - I'm not exactly sure what is meant by that. He would have ceased to be Tuvix, and then would be Tuvix again - I mean, if it were duplicated, not approximated, for the sake of argument. Anyway, no different from the two men losing their "souls" upon restoration. Actually no different from any run of the mill transport from a metaphysical standpoint. Which may or may not be relevant to the argument beyond metaphorical implications.
I think supporting Tuvix's "right" is like supporting the Go'a'uld "right" to take a host against their will. A kind of aggressive, involuntary parasitism - which only invokes rights in self-preservation, ignoring them in others when they are inconvenient. Um, doesn't quite work that way. Either people have rights or they don't - it pretty much goes for all people. unless of course one espouses the right of narcissism, which, some do.
Tuvix's "rights" make a mockery of the spirit of individual rights; exploit and use them in lip service, while in practice, embracing quite the opposite. He could say all the right words and still be a hypocrite who doesn't give a damn for the high principles he would actually wield as a murder weapon, given the choice. In other words, Tuvix couldn't cry murder. That's an abuse of the very ethics he would accuse others of violating.
I would call his principles more like "predatory barbarism cloaked in victimization". Tuvix didn't espouse individual rights. He would have no right to invoke it. An argument that depends on the enlightenment of people who are being criticized, when ironically they are the ones for whom individual rights actually means something.
It's something like, aggressively retarding your Olympic gymnasts' puberty through artificial means in order to come in over the age limit but compete at a prepubescent advantage; nothing of value has been won against competitors who actually respect and adhere to the spirit of the rule - though one may stridently cry abuse to draw attention away from one's own ethical violations. Razzle dazzle.
But I don't think he was a murderer, is the point. Because restoring the two men was not murder. And I do fail to see how people can defend Tuvix's right to exist while blithely ignoring the rights of the two men. Ignoring the rights doesn't just make them disappear. So far, I have yet to be convinced that Tuvix's rights were violated any more than the two's already were by Tuvix's willful blindness. In other words, Tuvix was in no position to argue from individual rights. His very existence depended on the suspension of those rights. And I for one have yet to be convinced, and at this point I doubt I will be, of his "right" to continue to exist at the cost of those two men. It doesn't wash.
And as for the argument about Tuvix's "soul" - I'm not exactly sure what is meant by that. He would have ceased to be Tuvix, and then would be Tuvix again - I mean, if it were duplicated, not approximated, for the sake of argument. Anyway, no different from the two men losing their "souls" upon restoration. Actually no different from any run of the mill transport from a metaphysical standpoint. Which may or may not be relevant to the argument beyond metaphorical implications.
I think supporting Tuvix's "right" is like supporting the Go'a'uld "right" to take a host against their will. A kind of aggressive, involuntary parasitism - which only invokes rights in self-preservation, ignoring them in others when they are inconvenient. Um, doesn't quite work that way. Either people have rights or they don't - it pretty much goes for all people. unless of course one espouses the right of narcissism, which, some do.
Tuvix's "rights" make a mockery of the spirit of individual rights; exploit and use them in lip service, while in practice, embracing quite the opposite. He could say all the right words and still be a hypocrite who doesn't give a damn for the high principles he would actually wield as a murder weapon, given the choice. In other words, Tuvix couldn't cry murder. That's an abuse of the very ethics he would accuse others of violating.
I would call his principles more like "predatory barbarism cloaked in victimization". Tuvix didn't espouse individual rights. He would have no right to invoke it. An argument that depends on the enlightenment of people who are being criticized, when ironically they are the ones for whom individual rights actually means something.
It's something like, aggressively retarding your Olympic gymnasts' puberty through artificial means in order to come in over the age limit but compete at a prepubescent advantage; nothing of value has been won against competitors who actually respect and adhere to the spirit of the rule - though one may stridently cry abuse to draw attention away from one's own ethical violations. Razzle dazzle.
I've been mystified by this myself for quite a while now.
An interesting phrase that can be applied to a variety of situations, imo.
Saying Tuvix has the right to exist is no more blithely ignoring the rights of Tuvok and Neelix than saying Neelix and Tuvok have the right to exist is blithely ignoring Tuvix's rights as an individual (though it is convenient to assume he isn't an individual and consequently has no rights, isn't it?).
When the accident first occurred there was no evidence that it would be possible to reverse the problem. How convenient to tell Tuvix "Well, see, you're not really supposed to be here anyway, so if 20 years from now we find a way to reverse the accident? You're toast." And for those who feel I'm being unreasonable, when I asked how long it was reasonable to wait before assuming Neelix and Tuvok could not be retrieved, the only answer I recall seeing was basically, "forever."
Now I'm picturing a society where to a point X adults are considered more "valuable" than children, and consequently children (unintended children if you prefer) can be forced to give up organs to save the lives of their parents...or be stigmatized for refusing to do so.
Taking Tuvix apart and putting him back together, IMO, would not yield Tuvix any more than replacing Data with Lore or B4 would yield Data. There's no evidence that Tuvix's "soul" would be retained if one were to try to recreate him.
When the accident first occurred there was no evidence that it would be possible to reverse the problem. How convenient to tell Tuvix "Well, see, you're not really supposed to be here anyway, so if 20 years from now we find a way to reverse the accident? You're toast." And for those who feel I'm being unreasonable, when I asked how long it was reasonable to wait before assuming Neelix and Tuvok could not be retrieved, the only answer I recall seeing was basically, "forever."
Now I'm picturing a society where to a point X adults are considered more "valuable" than children, and consequently children (unintended children if you prefer) can be forced to give up organs to save the lives of their parents...or be stigmatized for refusing to do so.
Taking Tuvix apart and putting him back together, IMO, would not yield Tuvix any more than replacing Data with Lore or B4 would yield Data. There's no evidence that Tuvix's "soul" would be retained if one were to try to recreate him.
Tuvix's soul?
Jesus Skellington.
You'd have to wonder how all their souls get to heaven depending on how everything might have hypothetically worked out and how sins were distributed.
Is half of Tuvix going to arrive with who ever dies first Neelix or Chakotay (Actually would the Borg nanoprobes that revived neelix have brought back half of Tuvix's soul?) at the pearly gates and and fall over wonder why he's split down the middle but not hemoraging till he's empty. The hopping everywhere would be hilarious waiting for the the Indian or the hedgehog to deliver the rest of him.
And what if half of him goes to heaven and the other half goes to hell because of the sins of the host/sire body?
Jesus Skellington.
You'd have to wonder how all their souls get to heaven depending on how everything might have hypothetically worked out and how sins were distributed.
Is half of Tuvix going to arrive with who ever dies first Neelix or Chakotay (Actually would the Borg nanoprobes that revived neelix have brought back half of Tuvix's soul?) at the pearly gates and and fall over wonder why he's split down the middle but not hemoraging till he's empty. The hopping everywhere would be hilarious waiting for the the Indian or the hedgehog to deliver the rest of him.
And what if half of him goes to heaven and the other half goes to hell because of the sins of the host/sire body?
Maybe "killing" Tuvix was exactly as (un)ethical as deleting the Doctor's program.
What, is the Doctor not a "real person"?
What, is the Doctor not a "real person"?
Dudes a light bulb.
Considering how remorselessly and effortlessly he deleted the Equinox's EMH, he's a hypocritical light bulb.
Considering how remorselessly and effortlessly he deleted the Equinox's EMH, he's a hypocritical light bulb.
