Tuvix -- Moralilty vs Life
- Thread starter chakotay_lover
- Start date
I share your values of individual rights, especially when it comes to life and death.
However I would also say in this case, it could be argued that this was a time when following the letter of the law was not the same as following the spirit of the law. The spirit of the law was set in place to protect the individual. What can be argued is that in this case, one individual would absolutely exist at the expense of another individual (or two) - there is no way to proceed here without violating that law.
But just to be clear - doing nothing here is not being free of the moral choice. Doing nothing here actively denies those individual rights to two crew (and "family"). It is literally a question of who does the captain choose to allow to live.
Should it have been the captain's decision? In fact, it was the moral obligation of everyone serving on that ship, insofar as it potentially applied to everyone on that ship. The captain just spared them of the issue and put her own neck on the chopping block.
Many people's first reaction would be to do nothing, and think that somehow absolved them of the moral consequences. I'm not so certain. It wouldn't be much of a comfort next time you stepped on the transporter pad, would it.
So the question is, how do you choose who lives and who dies? Well it just so happens that is a requisite issue in the Command Officers Exam. According to Starfleet policy, you do have to make that choice sometimes. Remember Troi sending Geordi to his "death" in her exam (in Thine Own Self, I believe)?
That order also defies the individual's right to choose. If the crewman disobeys out of self-preservation, he or she can return home to face a court martial, in which one penalty, even in the 24th century, is death.
Fleet duty isn't quite the same as being a civilian with a team of lawyers.
Now here's a question: Suppose Tuvix committed a court martialable offense such as treason? Would Starfleet have the right to put him to death, knowing there were two innocent souls bound inside him?
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As an aside, I always thought that test shown in TNG was pretty weak. Oh no, you have to order a hologram to kill itself! The horror!
Now if the test had somehow been staged so that the test-taker didn't realize it was a simulation (i.e. Bashir in Inquisition) that would be a lot more convincing to me.
Now if the test had somehow been staged so that the test-taker didn't realize it was a simulation (i.e. Bashir in Inquisition) that would be a lot more convincing to me.
But that would only prove that they could be easily manipulated by holograms. Something you'd leant to train against in case their officers are captured by Romulans and put to work in a cunning simulation to learn Starfleet secrets.
I suppose that it's not so much as killing Geordi, as much as understanding the consequences of killing geordi and the examiner is supposed to be able to figure out if the testee is faking their process. I mean if the ship needed saving and it required sacrificing one of the crew, that's great, but what if it was one crewman every 5 minutes or the ship goes boom?
At what point is it just more humane to kill every one? (or abandon ship.)
I've seen in fiction, people have avoided the exaction of the death penalty in the American system of Justice by killing more people or admitting to murders one one knew about which forces a new trial and a stay of execution.
I suppose that it's not so much as killing Geordi, as much as understanding the consequences of killing geordi and the examiner is supposed to be able to figure out if the testee is faking their process. I mean if the ship needed saving and it required sacrificing one of the crew, that's great, but what if it was one crewman every 5 minutes or the ship goes boom?
At what point is it just more humane to kill every one? (or abandon ship.)
I've seen in fiction, people have avoided the exaction of the death penalty in the American system of Justice by killing more people or admitting to murders one one knew about which forces a new trial and a stay of execution.
The choice made in an emergency is to do whatever possible to save both. When that isn't possible, the choice is to do the least harm.
It's not always possible to be 100 percent successful.
Oh, let's remark now that some people are better-er and more valuable than others that they should be assigned a score out of 100 and be rewardeed and privileged in accordance with that score for being less pathetic than others like Kim unable to flit past a the threshold of an embarrassing 30... Y'see nellix would be a a solid 15 but Tuvok is clearly an unparalleled 62, but een though you'd think tuvix would actually be a 77, he isn't because Neelix equally detracts as he negates from Tuvok that Tuvix is really a 47,
Bwa-hahahahah!
I totally did not see that coming.
Reminds me of the TC count in Critical Care. The problem with that is, what Captain in his or her right mind would get rid of their supply of redshirts?
More like, those who directly challenge the command staff's positions would go first. Seven, B'Elanna, Tuvok and Kim. You know, the ones actually doing all the work. Then you promote some scared to death lieutenants at half the salary/rations, and blame them for everything that goes wrong, from a holodeck beachside resort, of course.
More like, those who directly challenge the command staff's positions would go first. Seven, B'Elanna, Tuvok and Kim. You know, the ones actually doing all the work. Then you promote some scared to death lieutenants at half the salary/rations, and blame them for everything that goes wrong, from a holodeck beachside resort, of course.
Welcome to prerevolutionary France.
And contemporary China.
Oh, did I say that out loud?
Reminds me of something General Hammond said in SG1, season 7's Heroes (the one with Saul Rubinek/Kivas Fajo as a documentary film director). When people on his team had been shot and killed, in order to comfort Carter, he said:
You try to tell yourself that every man and woman under your command means the same to you. Each has to be equally valuable if you're going to make the kind of decisions that affect their lives the way I have to. But you can't help it. You get closer to some people *Sam nodding, fighting tears* you never want to lose anyone.*deep breath*. yup *Hammond leaves*
john titor
Captain
Janeway was a murderer pure and simple. Neelix and Tuvok were "killed" through an accident, killing Tuvix was intentional, ergo Janeway made an ethically bad decision. In any case further research could have been conducted to preserve Tuvix and duplicate the patterns of Tuvok and Neelix immanent in Tuvix through the transporters, rather than killing Tuvix off.
My kid is the result of a faulty condom. He shouldn't be here or alive. I tell him this and he calls me a bastard. We get along fine, but it's shear indulgence on his mothers part that we're playing along with this human error's belief in his right to liberty and happiness, but if I was to correct the original mistake by threading his flat head into a tightening condom, holding tight onto one end, pulling, till he's smothered dead... Am I murderer or just correcting the karmic balance in the universe?
Grim, but I'm just following your logic RegFan.
Tuvix couldn't control how he lived, but he had more than enough freedom to chose how he died, and in as Roman a way as possible, if he had opened his neck with a pearing knife, woul they have still been able to extract Neelix and Tuvok from his corpse?
I think i addressed aging before, but if Tuvok and Neelix were not aging and had no memories of the experience, or it could be forecast before hand that that was a likely outcome, then it really didn't matter when they divided Tuvix into his components.... In fact, given Vulcan longevity, it's possible that Neelix could have been younger when he came out the other side of this process.
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Nope. Tuvok and Neelix weren't dead. The dead don't come back. (Well, at least not without Seven's nanoprobes but that comes later). Here you had two crewmen trapped in the body of a third personality. Janeway did the right thing. It wasn't the easy thing but I'll bet if any of us were trapped in someone else we'd want out too.
No, Dukat had 7 children by his wife (Unless you count the non-canon Terok Nor books, where
his firstborn died as a baby
When did Worf knock up Jadzia?
As far as I remember, just before she died they were only planning to have children, and Bashir thought it would require a lot of medical help.
your reasoning is a bit strange. maybe better this here: you and your wife visit a fertility clinic because she can't get pregnant, but by a mix up, she's eventually impregnated not with your sperm, but the one of an unknown man. you both are aware of the accident.
now there are complications. if the unborn kid isn't aborted, your wife will die. the kid coul make it if her dead body is connected to some machine. your wife is already in a coma, and can't make the decision. it's yours now.
as far as i know, the law states that the mother enjoys priority.
You'd lose that bet.
I can categorically say that I would not kill an innocent to save my own life or that of a loved one.
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^ So if you were the Tuvix, you wouldn't have insisted on preserving your life over the lives of your two "donors"?
"Pure" and "simple" indeed.
Tuvix is alive and deserves the right to decide his own fate. Tuvok and Neelix are not living as separate entities.
Look, it comes down to medical ethics.
And the Doctor clearly stated what medical ethics dictates in such a situation--and he was absolutely correct.
For someone (our esteemed moderator) to claim that *any* of us would do as she would in a given situation is incorrect. This was my argument.
And as the widow of a transplant patient, I have been in a situation where we were called to make a choice as to risk someone else's life. My sweetie refused a live donor. I accepted his choice--even though that meant he would die.
