Tuvix -- Moralilty vs Life

[Kai Winn]

When is Tuvix allowed to live knowing he won't at some point be sacrificed "for the greater good"?

frankly, never. he's a violation of all ethics. if you are religious, you might call him an abomination. conceived in an unethical way, a freak accident of malfunctioning technology, at the cost of two lives that are valued by many, connected to relatives or other people who love them. if there is someone to blame for attempted murder, it's tuvix.
you can call him a sentient being full of compassion, but it's not the same as to conceive a child the old-fashioned way, bring it up, care for it, love it, and to invest many years and much effort into his or her development. to admit live conceived in ways like this is in the end the door opener for all sorts of manipulations, the next step is another augment problem or worse.

 

[teya]

When is Tuvix allowed to live knowing he won't at some point be sacrificed "for the greater good"?

frankly, never. he's a violation of all ethics. if you are religious, you might call him an abomination. conceived in an unethical way, a freak accident of malfunctioning technology, at the cost of two lives that are valued by many, connected to relatives or other people who love them. if there is someone to blame for attempted murder, it's tuvix.

Tuvix did nothing to cause the accident.

you can call him a sentient being full of compassion, but it's not the same as to conceive a child the old-fashioned way, bring it up, care for it, love it, and to invest many years and much effort into his or her development. to admit live conceived in ways like this is in the end the door opener for all sorts of manipulations, the next step is another augment problem or worse.

So much for IDIC.

 

[DonIago]

So, should Tom Riker have been killed also? Given he actively engaged in crimes against the Federation, I'd think he has even less of a right to exist then Tuvix, who was relatively harmless by comparison.

For that matter, the Moriarty hologram and Voyager's self-aware Doc have no more of a right to exist. They two were accidents, and both of them ultimately engaged in deliberate criminal activities.

We should probably make sure B4 gets overwritten with Data's programming too, since Data's clearly more valuable and B4 is clearly deficient.

 

[DevilEyes]

So, should Tom Riker have been killed also? Given he actively engaged in crimes against the Federation, I'd think he has even less of a right to exist then Tuvix, who was relatively harmless by comparison.

But he had as much right to exist as Will Riker, since Will was as much as "copy"/original of the original Riker as Tom was.

As for the crimes against the Federation, that's a completely different issue that has nothing to do with Tuvix, and has everything to do with Starfleet officers who defected to the Maquis. So I suppose you should say Ro, Eddington, Cal Hudson... didn't have a right to exist any more than Tom, if that's your view.

 

[DonIago]

But Tom Riker was "dead" until the Enterprise stumbled upon him, while Will had been living the life Tom would have had. One could argue he was in much the same state as Tuvok and Neelix while Tuvix existed.

Also, Ro, Eddington, and Cal Hudson weren't the results of transporter accidents.

 

[DevilEyes]

But Tom Riker was "dead" until the Enterprise stumbled upon him, while Will had been living the life Tom would have had. One could argue he was in much the same state as Tuvok and Neelix while Tuvix existed.

Um...no. He was very much alive, as alive as Will was, or anyone on the Enterprise. People are not dead just because there aren't any other people around to see them. A person living on a deserted island is still as alive as anyone else.

Also, Ro, Eddington, and Cal Hudson weren't the results of transporter accidents.

But Will Riker was.

And what does that have to do with the issue of Maquis criminal acts? You're confusing two completely different issues that have nothing to do with each other. Are you also suggesting that defendants who were conceived artificially should have that as one of the aggravating circumstances at their criminal trials? Or even that they should get a death sentence as soon as they commit any crime - because they were artificially conceived?

 

[gastrof]

You're in a terrible car accident. One of your limbs impales another person. You're left unconscious. The other party, also still alive, is awake but in an altered mental state.

He finds the current condition the two of you are in to be interesting, and tries to refuse medical treatment to separate the two of you. He even insists that since he's been impaled and you haven't been, he might bleed out if you're removed, so you're going to have to stay.

The doctors go ahead and remove your limb from his body.

Were they wrong?

Alternate (but similar) scenario-

Conjoined twins. One has a tumor. It's going to be fatal. No chance.

They share a needed organ. That's why they've never been separated.

One of the twins wants to be separated before they get something by way of the tumor throwing cancer cells that could make more tumors in their part of the body.

One of the twins IS going to die. The other can live if they're separated, but that'll leave the other one dead immediately.

Who has the right to live? The one who wants to live as long as possible, possibly at the cost of the other twin who COULD survive, or the one who, if separated now, WILL survive?

 

[Triskelion]

Teya, your husband sounds like a real heroic guy. I can't imagine what you must have gone through. You know something about ethics! And have the courage to act on your principles and face the consequences.

If I can bring reality back to this little fiction dilemma:

Who here would have done what Tuvix did to the crew and those two officers? Begging for his or her life at the expense of the other two? I, like others here, probably don't know what I'd do in that situation but I'd like to think I'd do the right thing.

And if we use Tom Riker as an analogy, then let's be thorough - should he have been allowed to live through the death of William Riker?

Gastrof, in both cases wouldn't the doctor choose who has the best chance of survival? I don't see anyone advising the accident victims to go on that way. As for the twins, I don't really know but if the conjoining put a definite cap on the survivability of both? Someone might choose. If both could survive? That's a more pronounced dilemma.

But in such a murky dilemma, absolute conviction hardly strengthens anyone's case.

 

[DevilEyes]

^ People really should stop using Tom Riker as an example. Neither of the two Rikers needed to die for the other to live. They could both have continued living. And in fact, they did.

It has nothing to do with the issue of Tuvix, where there was a no-win situation, as it was impossible to have Tuvok, Neelix and Tuvix all existing. There was no right solution.

 

[DonIago]

Actually, given that one of the arguments for the death of Tuvix was that he was an "abomination" who had no right to exist in the first place, I think the analog of another innocent being created as the result of a transporter accident is pertinent, especially given that in this case said being actively committed crimes. The worst thing we saw Tuvix do was not want to die.

Frankly, as a gay person, hearing someone talked about as an "abomination" who has no right to live because they shouldn't have existed in the first place is -deeply- unsettling.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Separating Neelix & Tuvok is like separating Seven of Nine from the Borg.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Actually, given that one of the arguments for the death of Tuvix was that he was an "abomination" who had no right to exist in the first place, I think the analog of another innocent being created as the result of a transporter accident is pertinent, especially given that in this case said being actively committed crimes. The worst thing we saw Tuvix do was not want to die.

Frankly, as a gay person, hearing someone talked about as an "abomination" who has no right to live because they shouldn't have existed in the first place is -deeply- unsettling.

There are no homos in Star Trek, therefore ipso facto there can be no homophobia in Star Trek.

but then the whole rise of the second class citizen is clearly demonstrated with Holograms trying to prove that they are real, could be an equally astute allegory to the concessions against sexual "oriental" (weird? but it seems to be the right word.) equality being hurdled.

On the incredibly bright side for the pink agenda... Two dudes had a baby without a lick of gynoinput.

GO TEAM!

Hilariously Laviticus a couple lines down (Up?) from where it suggests the great queer hunt of 2000 bc, also called fortune tellers abominations who must also be put to death too... Which is without much liberty, exactly how I would define %90 of the reason Picard lets Troi sit beside him on the bridge to the flagship.

But then Dee, she'd easily qualify as a witch too.

 

[Kai Winn]

Frankly, as a gay person, hearing someone talked about as an "abomination" who has no right to live because they shouldn't have existed in the first place is -deeply- unsettling.

i see. the traditional way of procreation must make you feel queasy, so lets look for alternatives, no matter how unethical. all it takes is to kill some proper people to conceive
life like this tuvix.
what about cloning yourself? be careful though, he'd be de facto you. sooner or later he gets the idea to become you de jure.

 

[teya]

Separating Neelix & Tuvok is like separating Seven of Nine from the Borg.

No.


However, the argument that a "transporter accident" has no right to exist is an argument to kill One as soon as he emerged from the maturation chamber.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Tuvix did have the right to exist. But so do Tuvok and Neelix. That's the dilemma. "The needs of the many" and all that.

 

[teya]

Teya, your husband sounds like a real heroic guy. I can't imagine what you must have gone through. You know something about ethics! And have the courage to act on your principles and face the consequences.

If I can bring reality back to this little fiction dilemma:

Who here would have done what Tuvix did to the crew and those two officers? Begging for his or her life at the expense of the other two? I, like others here, probably don't know what I'd do in that situation but I'd like to think I'd do the right thing.

Sweetie wasn't heroic. Just human. And, perhaps, unselfish. He wouldn't risk another's life to save his own.


As for Tuvix.... No one knew for sure the procedure would work. Tuvix was a complete organism--the fusion was at the cellular level. In such a situation, what *is* the right thing? Kill Tuvix in the hope of getting Neelix and Tuvok back? What if it didn't work? Then Janeway would have no tactical officer and she would have sentenced a sentient being to death for nothing.

So what is the "right thing"?

 

[DonIago]

Frankly, as a gay person, hearing someone talked about as an "abomination" who has no right to live because they shouldn't have existed in the first place is -deeply- unsettling.

i see. the traditional way of procreation must make you feel queasy, so lets look for alternatives, no matter how unethical. all it takes is to kill some proper people to conceive
life like this tuvix.
what about cloning yourself? be careful though, he'd be de facto you. sooner or later he gets the idea to become you de jure.

(laughs) Having watched lesbian sex in QaF, it's safe to say that girl parts do tend to make me queasy.

I don't recall claiming that Tuvix's creation was ethical, only that killing him wasn't ethical. Which isn't to say that letting him live at the cost of Neelix and Tuvix's lives -is- ethical. This isn't a binary issue, though some people would apparently like to portray it that way.

As for cloning...if it's occurring with my consent, hey, I get what I asked for. If I'm being cloned without my consent, that's pretty awful.

And if I'm being cloned while the original me is incapacitated in some way, shape or form...one could argue the transporter does that on a pretty regular basis in Trek.

It's hard not to wonder whether the "letting Tuvix live was wrong" folks would feel the same way if the procedure had failed and Janeway was left with nobody. I suspect there'd be a significant feeling of "Janeway was a moron for going through with such a risky and unethical procedure."

 

[teya]

Frankly, as a gay person, hearing someone talked about as an "abomination" who has no right to live because they shouldn't have existed in the first place is -deeply- unsettling.

i see. the traditional way of procreation must make you feel queasy, so lets look for alternatives, no matter how unethical. all it takes is to kill some proper people to conceive
life like this tuvix.

The process of procreation that created Tuvix was neither ethical nor unethical. An act based on ethics requires a conscious choice.


There was no conscious choice in his creation.


There was a conscious choice in his termination.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Separating Neelix & Tuvok is like separating Seven of Nine from the Borg.

No.


However, the argument that a "transporter accident" has no right to exist is an argument to kill One as soon as he emerged from the maturation chamber.

Is that it? Just "no"?

How about a "I don't think so because..."?

 

[kimc]

It's hard not to wonder whether the "letting Tuvix live was wrong" folks would feel the same way if the procedure had failed and Janeway was left with nobody. I suspect there'd be a significant feeling of "Janeway was a moron for going through with such a risky and unethical procedure."

The whole point of the episode was that there there was no easy answer to the issue. While I believe bringing back Tuvok and Neelix was right that doesn't necessarily follow that letting Tuvix live would have been wrong - it would have been a decision I wouldn't have agreed with but I could see how it could be made.

That's the intriguing thing about this episode and why it's been discussed in many threads in this forum over the years. We can all have our reasons for believing what Janeway did was either right or wrong but at the end of the episode it came down to the fact that there was absolutely no way to keep everyone alive. Whoever lived would be at the expense of someone else.

Leaders have to make that kind of call all the time. For me I believe that Tuvok and Neelix were trapped inside a third being against their will with no voice - a horrifying prospect imo. That's why I think Janeway's decision is the correct one.