Tuvix -- Moralilty vs Life

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'll assume you didn't mean to imply that Tuvix was less worthy of existence simply because he wanted to live instead of committing suicide in a procedure that -might- restore his constituent parts. To me, it's pretty cold-blooded to not have -some- sympathy for a creature wanting to preserve its own existence.

Well, no, I think most of us do feel sympathy for Tuvix. But we also feel it for Tuvok and Neelix as well. Why should Tuvix's right to life (if he has any) outweigh theirs?

Do the people who feel killing Tuvix was the right move also believe that the Baku should have been relocated?

No, since the Ba'ku were native to that planet and had every right to be there. Even if they weren't originally born on that planet, the Federation had nothing to do with their being there (unlike Tuvix, who exists only because of a transporter accident that occurred on a Starfleet ship), and thus the Feds have no business interfering.

That Qunn should have been destroyed because his continuing existence represented a danger to the Q continuum?

Quinn's fate was decided by entirely legal means. He requested asylum, the Q demanded a hearing, which they lost. They abided by that decision. There was never any problem after that.

If you could go back in time and kill Khan, Hitler, etc. at birth, would you?

No. For two reasons: 1) I'm not sanguine about killing babies, and 2) Interfering with history is always wrong, because you never know if the new timeline might be even worse.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That Qunn should have been destroyed because his continuing existence represented a danger to the Q continuum?

Quinn's fate was decided by entirely legal means. He requested asylum, the Q demanded a hearing, which they lost. They abided by that decision. There was never any problem after that.

Um, I know that because it's Voyager that we assume that there are no consequences or implications for the choices made in any episode but you forgot about a fricking Civil War. Just because the Q didn't take their anger out on Janeway, it doesn't mean that they didn't build up a good volley with exploding suns at one another because of Janeway's verdict.

Q knew that he was going to side with Quinn, so when he tried to bride Janeway was he really working for the Continuum, because if Janeway found in favour of the Q after that point, a misrial could be declared and it would have be hammer and tongs all over again. Q obviously fixed it that it was impossible for Janeway to side with the Q.

 

[Klaitu]

No, since the Ba'ku were native to that planet and had every right to be there.

Actually, the Ba'ku were not indigenous to the Briar patch planet. They escaped their own homeworld after it was devastated by WMD's, and settled on the Briar patch planet after discovering the regenerative properties of the planet's rings.

Though I can hardly fault this mistake. Insurrection was an absolutely horrible movie.

 

[Athena28]

I disliked it when I first saw it. I found the character annoying.

However, on repeated viewings I grew to like the ep. & I found the story intriguing.

I, do agree with Janeway's decision. She had the means to bring 2 crewmembers back 'to life'. They shouldn't be penalized just b/c another life had been created.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Actually, the Ba'ku were not indigenous to the Briar patch planet. They escaped their own homeworld after it was devastated by WMD's, and settled on the Briar patch planet after

None of which is the Federation's business. They had no part in whatever caused the Ba'ku to leave their own world, so they should have no part in forcing them to leave this one.

Of course it's obvious that they wouldn't anyway, and that Insurrection was a Section 31 plot. In fact, in the novels, that's exactly what it is.

 

[Anwar]

And besides, they settled that world before the Federation existed. It was THEIR world in every right.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Unfortunately the wording in this atrocious movie was very precise, and goes against everything I believe in as far as the prime Directive goes from dozens of other sources which are mostly Voyager and some good novels. because of insurrection, it is canon that it is Starfleet's policy that If you can fly at warp you don't get floaties and a guiding hand from the more "advanced" races to have your concerns caretaked (HA!!!!!!) until they're ready to join the galactic stage as players .

I was thinking that this thread should have been called Morality vs. Mortality.



They should have done a mirror universe story where the crew met Xivut, a blended person who was never unjoined.

Would they share the secret of unjoining Neelix and Tuvko with the mirror universe crew? Because it does seem like if not prime directive territory because of careless writing from Insurrection, then it certainly holds sway to being governed by the Non Interference [policy mentioned during the Klingon Civil War.

 

[DonIago]

If Tuvix was a selfish coward for not eagerly embracing the chance to kill himself to possibly save two people, the Baku were far worse for not being willing to inconvenience themselves to save hundreds...thousands...millions? of people.

Like they'd notice a colony set-up on the far side of the planet.

Of course, the movie cleverly evades the question of any compromise options.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No it doesn't.

Picard says tht they can do the job slowly with no environmental damage whatsoever, but they wouldn't be able to harvest any usable "stuff" for a few decades, or some duration which was in excess of all the Sonarr's life expectancies.

They only had to move the Baku because they needed a rush job which would destroy the planet.

 

[Kai Winn]

i highly rated episode which i strongly dislike nonetheless. i'd rather watch treshold five times back to back. what's the big ethical question here? tuvok and neelix didn't die as tuvix confirmed countless times, they lived on within him. he had no right to terminate their lives, and janeway had every right to save them. the only redeeming moments of this awkward episode deliver the doc, and action kate.

 

[teya]

I disliked it when I first saw it. I found the character annoying.

However, on repeated viewings I grew to like the ep. & I found the story intriguing.

I, do agree with Janeway's decision. She had the means to bring 2 crewmembers back 'to life'. They shouldn't be penalized just b/c another life had been created.

The life that was created was recognized as a sentient individual. He had a Starfleet commission.

In "Death Wish," Janeway decided that the rights of the individual outweigh the rights of the state. She contradicted herself here.

This was a medical procedure and the Doctor was absolutely right in terms of medical ethics--the individual has the right to make the decision regarding any medical procedure.

 

[Triskelion]

If Janeway discarded the rights of the individual, she would not have put herself in such a terrible position in order to protect the rights of her two crewmen. She could have done the easy thing and washed her hands of it and called herself "enlightened". It saddens me a bit to see so many people dismiss her out of hand - and with such certainty!

But instead, she put herself in the line of fire and preserved the rights of the two individuals that constituted this "person". She endured those terrible cries, and the silence of her crew. Knowing she might be placing her own head on the chopping block for it. This is not the act of someone insensitive to rights, or who places "the state" above individuals. She put Tuvok and Neelix before herself. So naturally, she should get lynched for it.

I just want to know. If Janeway had "preserved" Tuvix's "individual rights", and allowed him to continue to live - are people saying they would not criticize her for ignoring Tuvok and Neelix's rights? Or are people saying that no matter what she decides, they are going to accuse her of being a kind of fascist? Are they saying they could simply shrug off the disappearances of Tuvok and Neelix, and start all over with the new guy as if nothing happened?

I just don't get it. Why are people so certain Tuvix's rights outweigh Neelix and Tuvok's? Where do they get their convictions? Is it because he is a novelty, or a minority of one? Or is it because his existence undermines the races of his forebears? Or is it just some kind of culturally-relativistic righteousness that affords entitlement to minority over majority by default? That projects its own prejudices in the majority's mind?

If they "live on" in Tuvix, does he not "live on" in them?
If Tuvix was "murdered", is he not also a proponent of "murder"?
If "tough luck" Tuvok and Neelix, "hello" Tuvix, what rights do any individuals have? It may not be the "State" - but culture can be just as oppressive to the individual.

Janeway restored two individuals from an accident. I mean, she could have decided not to; and then they would have to accept Tuvix, and Tuvix would have his life. It could have gone either way. I just don't see how people are so sure of themselves to know she did the wrong thing. Because I know, had Janeway allowed Tuvix to live, these same folks would still be calling her an oppressor. Well where's her right to exist? Where's her right to sit on the sideline and do nothing except rabble rouse?

 

[teya]

If Janeway discarded the rights of the individual, she would not have put herself in such a terrible position in order to protect the rights of her two crewmen. She could have done the easy thing and washed her hands of it and called herself "enlightened". It saddens me a bit to see so many people dismiss her out of hand - and with such certainty!

I have worked in oncology for much of my 30 year career in healthcare. I take medical ethics quite seriously, thank you.

However, I don't dismiss Janeway out of hand, nor do I think that it was an easy decision. That is the point of discussing medical ethics--there are many cases, even in real life, that are not easy decisions.

But instead, she put herself in the line of fire and preserved the rights of the two individuals that constituted this "person". She endured those terrible cries, and the silence of her crew. Knowing she might be placing her own head on the chopping block for it. This is not the act of someone insensitive to rights, or who places "the state" above individuals. She put Tuvok and Neelix before herself. So naturally, she should get lynched for it.

Wow! Stating an opposing opinion is "lynching" her?

I just don't get it. Why are people so certain Tuvix's rights outweigh Neelix and Tuvok's? Where do they get their convictions? Is it because he is a novelty, or a minority of one? Or is it because his existence undermines the races of his forebears? Or is it just some kind of culturally-relativistic righteousness that affords entitlement to minority over majority by default? That projects its own prejudices in the majority's mind?

None of the above.

Tuvix was alive, sentient, and *there*. Neelix and Tuvok were not--and there was *no* guarantee the procedure would work.


How would those who claim Janeway was absolutely right feel if the procedure *didn't* work and there were 3 dead crewmen?

Because I know, had Janeway allowed Tuvix to live, these same folks would still be calling her an oppressor.

Actually, you don't. I don't know you, you can't read my mind.


And you're wrong. Had she chosen in Tuvix's favor, I'd say it was a difficult decision, but ultimately the right one.

 

[Triskelion]

Actually, not you, Teya, but others have called her a murderer, and I would say that's a pretty serious accusation to just bandy about - in such a morally ambiguous case as this.

You do make a salient point about the risk inherant in the procedure. That certainly weighs in favor of Tuvix.

How can you know if preserving Tuvix was the right decision? How can you know? By what right would you say so?

I can read your mind. Go ahead and get the Twinky. You look beautiful.

Ok, seriously, I don't know if you would still call her an oppressor. But if someone can say with conviction she made the wrong decision, why couldn't someone also say with conviction she made the wrong decision if she chose opposite? There's really nothing to stop them.

And you're absolutely right, I know nothing about you except what you choose to present here, and vice versa. I shouldn't try to miscast you, nor was I going after you personally. We're both fans. Good enough.

But when folks call her a murderer? It seems more personal and arbitrary than anything she may decide. Because they can call her a murderer either way, really. I just happen to think that by shouldering this decision alone, she took a bullet for the team. That would make her heroic.

And finally may I say that Neelix and Tuvok knew they were signing up for ship duty, and that is not the safest place to be in the galaxy. Tuvix would know it too, whether he was able to subscribe to it or not. If he had any sense he should have immediately disappeared into a crowded spaceport.

 

[DonIago]

I would say she killed Tuvix, but I wouldn't call her a murderer.

I would say I disagree with her decision, but I wouldn't call her decision wrong.

I wouldn't blast her for opting to let Tuvix live. That would be hypocrisy.

I will say I always assumed when Tuvix said that Tuvok and Neelix lived within him that he was speaking metaphorically, much as I could say my parents live within me. I...um...kind of thought that was obvious.

 

[Praxius]

I personally just don't get why some keep talking about Tuvix being "Killed"

He wasn't killed, he just ceased to exist, just like how he wasn't born either...... and when people want to talk about individual rights and all that, in paticular "Human Rights" which is the only thing we have to base our understanding on in this matter, that kinda varies depending on where you live.

As an example, here in Canada as far as I'm aware, Human Rights are only applied after someone is born. I know in the US, some have been trying to apply human rights to the unborn to somehow protect them from abortions, etc.

The difference with this situation is that Tuvix was never born in the first place and was a technological accident that put two already existing (and born I might add) lives on suspension for his own desires of wanting to continue living both Tuvok's and Neelix's lives that were never his to begin with.

To allow Tuvix to continue existing was to deny the only two people that these rights actually cover to no longer exist, which to me is unjust.

Besides, Tuvix was not of any alien species that would be considered a part of the Federation, let alone recognized at the time.... not only that, but Tuvix didn't go through Starfleet to obtain the rank and position that he decided to take as his own. Tuvok did, and while he may still retain Tuvok's experiences, with Neelix involved in the mix, who never went through Starfleet and for Tuvix to claim he's his own individual, that would disqualify him from keeping the position of head of security/tactical officer and would should have gone through re-training to confirm he was capable in the long run of maintaining the position Tuvok worked so long in trying to obtain.

To me, it boiled down to a Prime Directive situation where Janeway had to choose between her two crewman over the life of a new alien species (not of post warp either I might add) And I'm pretty sure there has been many examples in the past where a Starfleet Commander/Captain choose to save their own crewmen at the expense of another alien species.

 

[teya]

IHe wasn't killed, he just ceased to exist, just like how he wasn't born either......

Actually, he was born. In the episode, it was clearly stated that Tuvix was the result of symbiogenesis--which is a form of reproduction.

 

[teya]

Ok, seriously, I don't know if you would still call her an oppressor. But if someone can say with conviction she made the wrong decision, why couldn't someone also say with conviction she made the wrong decision if she chose opposite? There's really nothing to stop them.

My opinion is, once again, based on 30 years in healthcare, primarily oncology, where yes, we do deal with medical ethics. It's also long been a fascination of mine.


The Doctor was absolutely right. The individual has the right to refuse a procedure. That's how I can have such conviction.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

The individual has the right to refuse a procedure

True, but Tuvix wasn't just an "individual". He was a Starfleet officer who insisted upon resuming his career as the "Tactical Officer" on board Voyager. That means he's beholding to the Captain of the ship and her decisions. It happens in the military even today... when soldiers are forced to get vaccinations or give blood samples that they don't want to take or give.

The Captain vetoed Tuvix's wishes and forced the procedure on him just as she did 3 years later in (?) "Nothing Human" when she forced the lifesaving medical procedure on B'Elanna, Voyager's Chief Engineer. Unlike with Tuvix, we know how the patient felt about this breach of individual rights. B'Elanna was angry with Janeway afterwards. They never really buried the hatchet until season 6's "Barge of the Dead", and yet Janeway didn't waver in her decision. B'Elanna was too important to the success of the mission to let her go. In season 7's "Imperfection", when Seven refused a medical procedure, Janeway WAS willing to let her do so because "militarily", her life wasn't integral to the success of the ship.

I think that's one of the problems we have with interpreting the ethical issues of this story. We look at it from our own civilian, democratic viewpoint, but in actuality each "week" we are watching a show about a dictatorship. The Captain rules the ship, and heavy is the head that wears the crown.

 

[teya]

The individual has the right to refuse a procedure

True, but Tuvix wasn't just an "individual". He was a Starfleet officer who insisted upon resuming his career as the "Tactical Officer" on board Voyager. That means he's beholding to the Captain of the ship and her decisions. It happens in the military even today... when soldiers are forced to get vaccinations or give blood samples that they don't want to take or give.

The Captain vetoed Tuvix's wishes and forced the procedure on him just as she did 3 years later in (?) "Nothing Human" when she forced the lifesaving medical procedure on B'Elanna, Voyager's Chief Engineer. Unlike with Tuvix, we know how the patient felt about this breach of individual rights. B'Elanna was angry with Janeway afterwards. They never really buried the hatchet until season 6's "Barge of the Dead", and yet Janeway didn't waver in her decision. B'Elanna was too important to the success of the mission to let her go. In season 7's "Imperfection", when Seven refused a medical procedure, Janeway WAS willing to let her do so because "militarily", her life wasn't integral to the success of the ship.

I think that's one of the problems we have with interpreting the ethical issues of this story. We look at it from our own civilian, democratic viewpoint, but in actuality each "week" we are watching a show about a dictatorship. The Captain rules the ship, and heavy is the head that wears the crown.

And that's a good argument for Janeway's point of view.


I just can't get around the medical issues in this one. That's why I feel as I do.