Tuvix -- Moralilty vs Life

[Mr. Laser Beam]

IHe wasn't killed, he just ceased to exist, just like how he wasn't born either......

Actually, he was born. In the episode, it was clearly stated that Tuvix was the result of symbiogenesis--which is a form of reproduction.

Only with the plant they were transporting. Tuvok and Neelix themselves could not have parented Tuvix, so in that sense, he was not born.

And as I keep pointing out: Why does Tuvix's right to existence OUTWEIGH that of Tuvok and Neelix? Why does the need of ONE take precedence over that of TWO?

Think of it this way. If Tuvix is indeed a 'child' of Tuvok and Neelix, then in a very real sense, Tuvix's birth would mean their deaths. I think most of us, whether we be pro- or anti-abortion, would grant that if a baby's birth would mean the mother's death, that would be an argument for terminating the pregnancy, wouldn't it? So why would one not allow that baby to live, but insist that Tuvix live? The principle is the same: The existence of the child cannot come without the death of a parent (in this case, both 'parents').

 

[DonIago]

On the other hand, one can argue that the situation is more akin to the parents dying giving birth to a child, and the actual question is whether it's ethical to kill a baby after it's been born in order to -possibly- resurrect its parents.

Again, I wish people would stop glossing over the fact that the procedure could have failed.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Again, I wish people would stop glossing over the fact that the procedure could have failed.

And Tuvix could have died if he'd continued to exist (perhaps due to some incompatibility between Vulcan and Talaxian genes). Speculation is irrelevant in this case.

 

[teya]

IHe wasn't killed, he just ceased to exist, just like how he wasn't born either......

Actually, he was born. In the episode, it was clearly stated that Tuvix was the result of symbiogenesis--which is a form of reproduction.

Only with the plant they were transporting. Tuvok and Neelix themselves could not have parented Tuvix, so in that sense, he was not born.

And as I keep pointing out: Why does Tuvix's right to existence OUTWEIGH that of Tuvok and Neelix? Why does the need of ONE take precedence over that of TWO?

Think of it this way. If Tuvix is indeed a 'child' of Tuvok and Neelix, then in a very real sense, Tuvix's birth would mean their deaths. I think most of us, whether we be pro- or anti-abortion, would grant that if a baby's birth would mean the mother's death, that would be an argument for terminating the pregnancy, wouldn't it? So why would one not allow that baby to live, but insist that Tuvix live? The principle is the same: The existence of the child cannot come without the death of a parent (in this case, both 'parents').

Tuvix was not in utero, so no, it's not like terminating a pregnancy.


However, it would be akin to requiring a living child to donate a heart to save its mother or father.

 

[Triskelion]

And yet for all the fighting for individual rights, it depends upon ignoring the rights of the two officers who had decades of existence prior to their being blended. Arguing for Tuvix's rights absolutely obliterates any rights of the two men. A convenient oversight, and one which I would not be so comfortable making and think my position was unassailable. Regardless of my decades of experience in whatever field.

Tuvix was not a new life form. He was a blend of three extant lives. He was no Data. He was Borg. Assimilated into a collective against his will.

Or would people argue that Seven's "individual rights" as a Borg precluded Janeway's interference?

I would call that missing the point of individual rights entirely. But then some people are assholes for Christ - they can devote their entire lives to something in which they have completely missed the point. Present company excepted.

 

[Galactus]

How about a twist to this old argument? What if a bad guy had merged the two? So instead of an accident you have an act by another? Would that change your opinion of what happened and the decision she made?

 

[DonIago]

I'm sure it could be argued that any apparent accident is possibly the work of a higher power, for better or for worse.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're describing Seska raping Chakotay and then his conversation with a dreamvision of his father about how he shouldn't have to take responsibility for progeny he no input toward the creation of.

Chakotay went from "fuck it" to "I must rescue my son and raise him right before his mother poisons his brain" very quickly.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So why would one not allow that baby to live, but insist that Tuvix live? The principle is the same: The existence of the child cannot come without the death of a parent (in this case, both 'parents').

Tuvix was not in utero, so no, it's not like terminating a pregnancy.


However, it would be akin to requiring a living child to donate a heart to save its mother or father.

No, I don't see it that way. Because 1) Other hearts could be used, not just this kid's; 2) The kid *and* both parents presumably already exist for the purposes of this example. The kid's very existence in the first place, does not in itself require one of their deaths. I proposed the example of a difficult childbirth which could kill the mother in the process, because this is closer to what happened in the episode (Tuvix's "birth" killed Tuvok and Neelix).

 

[teya]

So why would one not allow that baby to live, but insist that Tuvix live? The principle is the same: The existence of the child cannot come without the death of a parent (in this case, both 'parents').

Tuvix was not in utero, so no, it's not like terminating a pregnancy.


However, it would be akin to requiring a living child to donate a heart to save its mother or father.

No, I don't see it that way. Because 1) Other hearts could be used, not just this kid's; 2) The kid *and* both parents presumably already exist for the purposes of this example. The kid's very existence in the first place, does not in itself require one of their deaths. I proposed the example of a difficult childbirth which could kill the mother in the process, because this is closer to what happened in the episode (Tuvix's "birth" killed Tuvok and Neelix).

Thing is, whether we'd approve or not, it's illegal to abort a viable fetus. We don't kill full-term infants to save their mothers. If a complication arises in childbirth, we attempt to save both.

First hospital job I had, we had a mom whose uterus ruptured in labor, threatening both her life and the baby's. An emergency c-section was done, the infant was saved. However, there was no way to save the mother.

It happens.

Edited to add: Technically, the surgeon could have done a hysterectomy and not saved the fetus. And that might have prevented the complication that killed the mom. However, we don't kill viable infants to save a mother. Not at full term, and certainly not after they're born.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's illegal "now".

In the future, there's a monthly bigender injection which makes pregnancy impossible according to Sisko and Cassidy, so contraception is deemed good.

Did Picard want to Kill Ian Troi?

There was talk about terminating the sort of pregnancy but Dee wouldn't let them.

What about in Nothing Human? That creature wouldn't let go of Bee, and they were becoming a dual entity and murder was certainly on the table.

The Cloud.

Janeway accidentally nearly aborted a fetus hundreds of times the size of Voyager, and wouldn't wakl away from her error in judgement no matter the sacrifice she had to make to save the baby.

They didn't give a shit about their lizard babies.

150 people screwing for 7 years and they make one baby.

The Doctor had to be preforming abortions since contraception needs people to be on the ball and not be mindless drones form months at a time... I'm amaze that half the crew didn't have Hirogen bastards form some hunting simulation we were not privy to since in many ancient cultures rape has been used as a tool in war.

The doctor, for a second, wanted to Butcher Ones brain just to get his mobile emitter back.

Why didn't Gul Dukat and Worf have a show down? He killed Worf's son.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

The scene where Tuvix begs the bridge crew to help him and is then dragged off to sickbay is one of the most horrifying things I've ever seen on any sci-fi show. It's genuinely chilling and it's astonishing that they decided to present the characters like this in Voyager of all shows. The episode is compelling and well-executed in its way, but I'm not sure I ever want to see it again.

 

[Brit]

First hospital job I had, we had a mom whose uterus ruptured in labor, threatening both her life and the baby's. An emergency c-section was done, the infant was saved. However, there was no way to save the mother.

It happens.

Edited to add: Technically, the surgeon could have done a hysterectomy and not saved the fetus. And that might have prevented the complication that killed the mom. However, we don't kill viable infants to save a mother. Not at full term, and certainly not after they're born.

And just what did those doctors tell that woman's children, that is was more important to have a living infant than the mother who would teach them, protect them, and teach them how to love by giving them her love. There is no excuse for that situation.

I do know some religions would make this choice, and I know that those that practice that religion believe down to the bottom of their hearts that this would be the right thing to do.

However it isn't. When a doctor makes the choice between either a living mother or a living infant, the choice should fall to the living mother. A stillborn child is a loss and sad in the extreme, but a dead parent is tragic and can result in the loss either emotionally or physically of her other offspring.

The “needs of the many” is not an easy choice and may seem to override the individual, but it is sometimes necessary.

Brit

 

[kimc]

The scene where Tuvix begs the bridge crew to help him and is then dragged off to sickbay is one of the most horrifying things I've ever seen on any sci-fi show. It's genuinely chilling and it's astonishing that they decided to present the characters like this in Voyager of all shows. The episode is compelling and well-executed in its way, but I'm not sure I ever want to see it again.

I agree it is quite chilling which is what made it so compelling. Voyager went a a darker than normal place with this episode. Perhaps that's why we're still talking about it today.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I wonder if he ran, how long Janeway would have hunted him for?

A week a month, a year?

Would he still be making his own way back to the AQ, or would it be more logical to head back towards Ocampa to infuriate Janeways forward momentum?

She went backward months for Neelix's imaginary health issues in Jetrel, and they went backwards months just to hand over a quickfix to Janeway and her boyfriend who had some pox... But if Tuvix made it to Ocampa and kept going to the Galactic barrier adding 10's of thousands of light years to Voyagers odometer?

You'd have to ask is it worth it and how driven is Janeway to keep inner Ahab revving?

Alternatively she could get bored of chasing him after three days if he's so good at hiding that there is no clue at all to which way he has gone.

So the real question is, how crazy is Voyager's Captain for justice at this early point in the game before we saw her pull out all the stops for Ransom?

 

[Jbarney]

Ok, seriously, I don't know if you would still call her an oppressor. But if someone can say with conviction she made the wrong decision, why couldn't someone also say with conviction she made the wrong decision if she chose opposite? There's really nothing to stop them.

My opinion is, once again, based on 30 years in healthcare, primarily oncology, where yes, we do deal with medical ethics. It's also long been a fascination of mine.


The Doctor was absolutely right. The individual has the right to refuse a procedure. That's how I can have such conviction.

I agree the individual should have the right to refuse the procedure.

I can't help but think of the ways that trek has presented other trek duplication accidents. Would the "Evil" Kirk from the first season of TOS had the right to refuse? Just wondering.

Wonder if Will/Tom Riker can be thrown into this situation at all. Probably not.

This is all very thought provoking.

 

[DonIago]

Evil Kirk might have opted to go through with the procedure if he was aware that he'd die without it. Alternately, I imagine there's a chance he could be declared mentally incompetent, in which case I might support the decision being taken out of his hands.

I don't think Will/Tom is really a valid analogy since no lives were at stake. If they were, I think both of them had enough integrity that they'd voluntarily undergo the procedure.

I suppose if there'd been evidence that Tuvix was mentally incapacitated in some manner that there wouldn't be as much of an argument against the procedure...though that would weaken the episode as well since Tuvix would have been shown to be obviously "inferior" (I apologize for the lack of a better word) to Tuvok and Neelix independently.

On a related note...if Data's memories could be fully restored within B4's body, should B4 be required to assimilate them? Clearly Data is a more "valuable" individual than B4 if Nemesis is any indication. How about if B4 can be declared mentally incompetent? How about if B4 was on Enterprise and it experienced a Voyager incident?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Season Sevens Second Chances was a darling story, Will Rikers working together toward a common goal (Where there's a Wiill there's a way, where there's two Wills there's two ways, where there two Will's and Deanna there's a threeway.). however... Do you recall Season Two's up the long ladder? Riker destroying his illegally and unconscionably harvested clone because and I quote "The Universe is only big enough for one Will Riker."

What about that jerk turk version of Picard from Nemesis?

He had to "eat" his genetic contributor and Shinzon was fine with the ethics backboning that decision because lets face it, a child Praetor is far more important to god and the universe than an ancient doddering Starship Captain ion his last legs.

 

[Kai Winn]

It's illegal "now".
150 people screwing for 7 years and they make one baby.

two. we can only speculate how many alien females have been knocked up along the way by kim and paris alone. it's not so that the other star trek franchises reported lots of reproductions, i'm not aware that tos and ent contributed a single one (apart from the tucker incident which doesn't count), tng and ds9 a combined total of two, both by the o'briens. i don't think that many star trek fans contemplated how miles and keko made love, makes me too a bit uncomfortable. voyager's pornography in comparison. why bother to have a real partner around, if you can have a tailor made one in the holo suite?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Holobrothling was old hat from Quarks well before Voyager was a glint in the milkma'ns eye.

Miral was born int he AQ, and Naomi was conceived in the AQ.

I believe it's generous to categorize Miral as a DQ kiddy since she didn't peek out of her mommy till they were half hour from earth at warp 6.

Off the top of my head?

Sisko had a kid and knocked up Cassidy.

Rom and Lita were talking about kids.

I adore thinking about Kieko in her 40s. Extraordinarily well prepared.

Worf knocked up Jadzia and Keh'Ler.

Data had a little girl called Lal who a monkey called Riker seduced.

There was a male ensign on DS9 who was budding and pregnant years before Tucker got lucky.

Kira carried one of the O'Briens babies.

Odo raised both a Jem'Hadar and a changeling from infancy.

Kieko taught a school room full of children described as both starfleet and/or bajoran/local.

Troi had an over night space baby in the season two première.

Lwaxana got Odo to marry her supplanting the kids natural pappy to save a wink she was carrying from being dragged off by another babydaddy.

Gul Dukat had 9 kids in season 4, but that was before the halfling showed up, or he started Jim Jonesing his groupies on Empok Nor, and that's if you don't count him as Kira's secret step father which makes all the times he tried to get a leg over and full her oven up with buns all the more distressing than space Hitler hitting on a space Jew.

Picard had numerous virtual children and grandchildren in both the Inner Light and Generations.