Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really work

[kimc]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Easy fix - the father passed away sometime between conception and the present. Morbid, but it solves the problem.

Hey, that's cheating!

I think whether or not a fetus _should_ have the same rights is debatable. Should "dead" Neelix and Tuvok have had the same rights as living Tuvix? While his objectivity is obviously questionable, it could be argued that he was best qualified to speak for them. I believe he claimed in the episode that Tuvok and Neelix wouldn't have approved of Janeway's decision (I haven't seen it in too long).

That's exactly it. Tuvix was anything but objective. He was not considering the lives of Neelix and Tuvok. He was thinking only of himself. Someone had to advocate for Neelix and Tuvoka and that person turned out to be Kes.

With your last paragraph, it sounds like the "correct" answer should be dependent on who the people were. I find that a troubling guideline.

Anything this serious cannot be magically be solved with a "one size fits all" rule.

 

[polyharmonic]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Obviously many people insist that Tuvok and Neelix were not dead but in some kind of suspended animation equivalent or such inside Tuvix. Assuming that is the case, then I can understand people justifying killing Tuvix to "free" Tuvok and Neelix trapped inside him.

However let's assume other possible set of facts.
1) The transporter literally killed Tuvok and Neelix
2) The transporter then used the dead remains of Tuvok and Neelix to create a new being Tuvix that is like the equivalent of their offspring.
3) Tuvix contained within him the information to create DUPLICATES of the original Tuvok and Neelix.

If we assume the above set of facts as our foundation, then the question becomes this:

Does Janeway have the right to kill Tuvix to create duplicates of Tuvok and Neelix?

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

^Not if Tuvix is mentally competent and does not wish to undergo the procedure.

 

[hyzmarca]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Tuvix was a binary being, not unlike a Joined Trill. Ethically and practically, he should have been treated as a joined individual, which the Federation has preexisting rules and regulations for dealing with.

 

[Thestral]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Tuvok and Neelix died in an accident. They created Tuvix in their passing. Janeway murdered Tuvix - an adult, sentient being able to make decisions and with every bit as much right to live as herself - because she couldn't handle losing two members of her crew. In murdering Tuvix, Tuvok and Neelix - or their duplicates, it doesn't matter for these purposes - were resurrected (created). Tuvok and Neelix were not part of the equation when Tuvix lived, because they did not, and he was not at fault for this.There was one patient, Tuvix, not three, because two of the people no longer existed. Tuvix doesn't have to be objective about his right to live, any more than a healthy breathing individual would have to be objective about her organs being harvested to save ten other people.

As a sidenote, this is a habit (playing God and damn the ethical implications of the lives lost) that would be revisited in "Endgame" among others, so at least there's some consistency there.

My own take on the "soul" (or cousiousness or sentience, etc) is that it exists only in the mind in its neural activity and connectivity. From the moment when these neural connections were developed to death when the connections collapse, your soul and your very being is alive. But once this connectivity is gone, you are gone.

Now if the transporter could maintain the neural activity and connectivity DURING transport, then a good argument can be made that your "soul" is being transported. However if the transporter does not do such a thing and your neural connectivity is shut off and recreated later than clearly your soul was not recreated. Rather it is a duplicate being that was created.

Now why can't your soul be recreated? Well suppose it were possible to scan you and recreate a duplicate of you so that simultaneously there is a duplicate on the other side of transport. That duplicate clearly has its own soul that is different from yours because your soul is still in continous existence. Now let's say at this point I kill the original you. Now does the "soul" of the original you migrate to the body of the duplicate you? Obviously not because the duplicate of you already had its own soul indepedent of yours and would keep its soul going until the death of the duplicate.

This thought experiment proves that the duplicate has its own soul and it is not your original soul. Because if the transporter can clearly create new souls, then there is zero basis to believe that it isn't creating new souls all the time.

The Tuvix and Second Chances episode clearly show that the soul or consciousness is not kept in continous existence. And that being the case, the transporter clearly kills people in its normal course of operation (but also creates brand new consciousness as well).

I think there's a more mystical nature to the soul which, by its very nature, is somewhat undefinable. I think the physical nature, the neural activity and such, are maintained as electrical patterns and symbols. Two examples of accidents happening do not a pattern make, it's just one of those cases where metaphysics and physics interact, similarly to the Bajoran wormhole.

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Your comparison between two people mating to create an offspring and the case of Tuvix are completely different.

Two people mate to create an individual that will carry on their genetic material, Tuvix was created by a Transporter Malfunction that took the matter and bio-patterns and fused them together.

You are neglecting to take into account the orchid, which mates by symbiogenisis. Which is how Tuvix was created.

Had the procedure to seperate the two original individuals not been a relatively straight forward procedure, then we could argue that Tuvix had a right to live.

It wasn't a straightforward procedure. It took many weeks of research, during which time Tuvix was treated like the sentient being and member of the crew he was.

By any ethical standards--even those we employ in medicine today--the Doctor was absolutely right and Janeway absolutely wrong.

"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few."

But the rights of the individual are protected under Federation law. No one can be forced to give up his life to save others.

BTW, One was also the result of a transporter malfunction. Should he have been executed as well?

The comparison of an Orchid and a sentient organisms is irrelevant, in the case of the Orchid, Symbiogenesis is a natural progression which was deemed by nature to be acceptable and the optimal method for reproduction. Symbiogenesis was not meant for humans and thus, the Transporter accident was unnatural.


Regarding the procedure to seperate both Tuvok and Neelix, I said it was Relatively simple. The events of the Tuvix incident occured on August 27, 2372 and the procedure was completed by September 5, 2372. It may have taken a few days to plan the procedure, but this is true of all surgical procedures. The fact remains that there was an opportunity to bring two individuals back to their original, natural state then there is no question that this was to be carried out.

Voyager is in a life or death situation in The Delta Quadrant, as the captain it is a very reasonable decision to save two crewmembers rather than the product of a systems malfunction.

You also mention the rights of an individual being protected by Federation law, Tuvix was not an individual, he was two individuals who had unfortunately been combined in an accident, what about the rights of Tuvok and Neelix? Whether they both had perceptions or feelings whilst being one half of Tuvix is irrelevant, if you knew both individuals before the accident, you would know that they would not want to exist as one entity.

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Your comparison between two people mating to create an offspring and the case of Tuvix are completely different.

Two people mate to create an individual that will carry on their genetic material, Tuvix was created by a Transporter Malfunction that took the matter and bio-patterns and fused them together.

Are you saying that people only mate to create an offspring on purpose? Are "accidental" creations less valuable than those which are conceived intentionally?

Had the procedure to seperate the two original individuals not been a relatively straight forward procedure, then we could argue that Tuvix had a right to live.

That's a terrible argument - why does difficulty or simplicity of procedure determine right-to-life? It's pretty straight forward to shoot somebody, after all, and life support during comas is expensive.

Tuvix had every right to live - it wasn't his fault that he was created by accident, and what was done to him was execution.

I was merely stating that reproduction is a natural occurance to allow a species survive, Tuvix wasn't a species and wouldn't have been created any other way than with the Transporter Accident.

I wasn't claiming that the ease or difficulty of a procedure determines the right to life, I was stating that if Tuvix was naturally meant to survive, his physical person would not be as easy to seperate back into the two individuals as it was. The fact remains that he wasn't supposed to have existed, whereas Tuvok and Neelix were.

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As a Starfleet captain you are bound by duty to weigh up all factors in making a decision such as this which would undoubtedly have consequences for the survival of the crew and the relationships of Tuvok and Neelix who were caught in this malfunction.

By allowing Tuvix to carry on living, Voyager's crew would no doubt suffer due to the restrictions that having this individual rather than the original two would bring. We also could not predict the future implications of allowing both Tuvok and Neelix to survive in this state. There could be unforseen health, mental and emotional problems, none of which we would know how to deal with and who is to say that Tuvix would be able to survive and function as a member of the crew?

 

[plynch]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Also, as you well know a fetus does not have the full rights that an adult does.

That is debated. Supreme Court of the US agrees with you, as of 1973. Ditto ancient Israel - a baby wasn't accepted as a person until placed on the patriarch's knee.

Many would argue that a fetus does have the right to stay alive beginning at conception, though many of the same recognize a self-defense (self-preservation) right of the mother.

 

[teya]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

You also mention the rights of an individual being protected by Federation law, Tuvix was not an individual, he was two individuals who had unfortunately been combined in an accident, what about the rights of Tuvok and Neelix? Whether they both had perceptions or feelings whilst being one half of Tuvix is irrelevant, if you knew both individuals before the accident, you would know that they would not want to exist as one entity.

If Tuvix wasn't an individual, then Janeway violated Starfleet protocols by entering him in the crew manifest and assigning him to the Bridge.

Also your dates are off. In the episode, in the Captain's logs, she notes that weeks have passed, that Tuvix is settling in nicely, forming friendships, providing her with excellent counsel.

How typical of Captain Janeway's arrogance that she would befriend this individual and then argue after the fact that he wasn't.

 

[teya]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

By allowing Tuvix to carry on living, Voyager's crew would no doubt suffer due to the restrictions that having this individual rather than the original two would bring.

Both Captain Janeway and Chakotay said that Tuvix was more than the sum of his parts.

We also could not predict the future implications of allowing both Tuvok and Neelix to survive in this state. There could be unforseen health, mental and emotional problems, none of which we would know how to deal with and who is to say that Tuvix would be able to survive and function as a member of the crew?

Who is to say that any crew member will be able to survive and function?

With this argument, you're saying the captain should have thrown Seven and One out an airlock.

Apparently, to Captain Janeway, risk is no longer Starfleet's business.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

^I believe that's exactly what she said regarding Carey's death in season seven.

Cheap shot, I know.

 

[teya]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

^I believe that's exactly what she said regarding Carey's death in season seven.

Cheap shot, I know.

Oh, you do not want to get me going on *that* scene...

In one line, Janeway undoes everything that Star Trek has ever been about...

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

You also mention the rights of an individual being protected by Federation law, Tuvix was not an individual, he was two individuals who had unfortunately been combined in an accident, what about the rights of Tuvok and Neelix? Whether they both had perceptions or feelings whilst being one half of Tuvix is irrelevant, if you knew both individuals before the accident, you would know that they would not want to exist as one entity.

If Tuvix wasn't an individual, then Janeway violated Starfleet protocols by entering him in the crew manifest and assigning him to the Bridge.

Also your dates are off. In the episode, in the Captain's logs, she notes that weeks have passed, that Tuvix is settling in nicely, forming friendships, providing her with excellent counsel.

How typical of Captain Janeway's arrogance that she would befriend this individual and then argue after the fact that he wasn't.

Even if Tuvix was entered into the manifest and given a position on The Bridge, what else was to be done? Voyager was two officers down, two officers with important roles on the ship, this may have breached Starfleet protocol, but ensuring the crews safety in the event of a confrontation with an enemy was the main concern. Tuvix may have been able to perform duties but the fact of the matter is, the two individuals who had built relationships with the rest of the crew are needed more than Tuvix. The emotional impact his presence brought upon the crew would eventually have worked its way into their professional duties.

The difference between nine days and two weeks is negligable, during this time there were experiments being carried out in order to seperate both individuals.

A personality of sorts was evident but ultimately was the combination of two different individuals who were, in my opinion, trapped within the one body.

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By allowing Tuvix to carry on living, Voyager's crew would no doubt suffer due to the restrictions that having this individual rather than the original two would bring.

Both Captain Janeway and Chakotay said that Tuvix was more than the sum of his parts.

We also could not predict the future implications of allowing both Tuvok and Neelix to survive in this state. There could be unforseen health, mental and emotional problems, none of which we would know how to deal with and who is to say that Tuvix would be able to survive and function as a member of the crew?

Who is to say that any crew member will be able to survive and function?

With this argument, you're saying the captain should have thrown Seven and One out an airlock.

Apparently, to Captain Janeway, risk is no longer Starfleet's business.

He may have been more than the sum of his parts, but those "parts" needed rescuing.

Seven and One are irrelevant, Seven was human before The Borg assimilated her, she was simply returned to her natural state and in the case of One, he was concieved out of the merging of two different technologies, not sentient living beings.

Trying to reach home for almost seven years in The Delta Quadrant, the option of taking risks dwindles with every battle.

 

[teya]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

We also could not predict the future implications of allowing both Tuvok and Neelix to survive in this state. There could be unforseen health, mental and emotional problems, none of which we would know how to deal with and who is to say that Tuvix would be able to survive and function as a member of the crew?

Who is to say that any crew member will be able to survive and function?

With this argument, you're saying the captain should have thrown Seven and One out an airlock.

Apparently, to Captain Janeway, risk is no longer Starfleet's business.

Seven and One are irrelevant, Seven was human before The Borg assimilated her, she was simply returned to her natural state and in the case of One, he was concieved out of the merging of two different technologies, not sentient living beings.

Your argument was: "Who is to say that Tuvix would be able to survive and function as a member of the crew?"

Well, who was to say that Seven or One would be able to survive and function as a member of the crew? The Captain may have been returning Seven to her "natural state," but she still had Borg implants and there was no way of knowing if keeping her on board was a wise move or not.

One was even more potentially dangerous.

Trying to reach home for almost seven years in The Delta Quadrant, the option of taking risks dwindles with every battle.

Were Voyager on its last legs, I might agree.

But it looked pretty pristine to me.

And when Tuvix was created, they were barely a year & a half into the trip.

 

[teya]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

duplicate

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Your argument was: "Who is to say that Tuvix would be able to survive and function as a member of the crew?"

Well, who was to say that Seven or One would be able to survive and function as a member of the crew? The Captain may have been returning Seven to her "natural state," but she still had Borg implants and there was no way of knowing if keeping her on board was a wise move or not.

One was even more potentially dangerous.

That was not an arguement, it was a question. Your question is a valid one, there was no telling how either Seven or One would behave however, their presence on Voyager was not at the expense of another two crewmen. If Tuvix had been the product of a cloning or duplication error, he would have been given the same opportunities as Seven and One.

Were Voyager on its last legs, I might agree.

But it looked pretty pristine to me.

And when Tuvix was created, they were barely a year & a half into the trip.

Looks can be decieving, Voyager itself may not be in the worst shape, but the seven years in The Delta Quadrant obviously takes its toll on the emotional and psychological state of the crew.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Funny, I would say a significant number of the crew didn't seem to change all that much...

 

[Anwar]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Yeah, they were harder folk. Didn't go to pieces that easy.

 

[EEE]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

The creators said that the ...

Where exactly did they say that?

Transporters don't kill people.

People kill people? (Scotty, Kyle and O'Brien are mass murderers!?)

 

[Anwar]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

It was a Technical Manuel I read years ago, though if they changed the statement since then I suppose that's valid.

 

[Unimatrix 01]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

In S5 in the ep "Counterpoint" when Voy is being searched for telepaths, the passengers and telepathic crew members are held in "transporter suspension" while the ship is searched. I don't think they worried about each individual's pattern begin crossed but more about them destabilizing from being in there too long.