Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really work

[Navaros]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Being agnostic, and not being closed to the possibility that if souls exist they can be transferred between bodies (particularly between completely identical bodies), the soul argument doesn't really get far with me.

In any case, if you're worried that the transporter actually kills you, would being told, 'Oh no, it just "moves" your matter to a distant location," _really_ reassure you?

It may not matter to you personally but I'm sure the soul issue would matter to many/most of transporter users; who would refuse to use them for this reason, if they killed you as the OP suggests.

If a soul could be transferred between bodies that still does not mean that the victim who gets killed in transporters would have the choice to make his soul go into the new body...if that is what you are suggesting. It could be that that process is beyond the control of the owner of the soul, even if it is possible to be done.

Not sure if your question is asking if I'd be worried about transporter accidents - which is a different subject entirely, or something else. But in any case, any use of transporters that would cause my soul to leave my body and cause a new soul to be inhabiting what looks like my body, (the first part of which is what would have to happen if the OP's suggestion were accurate) would be unacceptable to ever use under any circumstances.

 

[plynch]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

If they get an exact me with the same memories, strengths, and faults, it IS me.

So you are saying that if you were attacked by a clone that precisely mimicked you down to the last detail, you'd let it win the fight and kill you on the grounds that once you were dead there would be a copy of you so you'd still be alive?

No, I don't think I said that.

I suspect my self defense instincts would kick in. But knowing me I wouldn't attack and try to kill someone, esp. another me. I would like the other me, though both of us not being people persons we wouldn't spend much time together. But then, I would like THAT about me #2. What a neat guy!

 

[plynch]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

It would make the difference in terms of your soul being elsewhere instead of still in the body where it is supposed to be, and an entirely different soul living as you.

Of course, with Tuvix the question of what happened to Tuvok/Neelix/Tuvix's souls is conveniently swept under the rug rather than addressed like it should have been.

I do not believe that the Tuvix situation can be applied to transporter usage in general, as that would cause a far more widespread issue about people's souls that would have undoubtedly been addressed on-screen numerous times if the OP's theory that transporters 'kill you' every time was correct.

I think Bones addressed it numerous times.

But I am curious about this "soul" concept. What is it? On what do you base your belief?

I know transporters are hypothetical, but would a "soul" travel with the scrambled matter/energy? Thanks for your thoughts in advance!

 

[Anwar]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

When you start talking about souls you get into the metaphysical, which Trek has hardly ever focused on. Closest they came was with Spock's "soul" being removed from his dying body and put back in when the body was regenerated and even then it's hard because he wasn't human.

 

[kimc]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Speaking of Spock when Spock's brain was "kidnapped" it seems his consciousness was down on the planet while his body was on the ship but where was his soul/katra?

 

[Anwar]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

It got sucked into a plot black hole.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

It's funny how we're talking about how hypothetical technology may affect a hypothetical metaphysical abstract.

 

[plynch]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

It's funny how we're talking about how hypothetical technology may affect a hypothetical metaphysical abstract.

Much better than people arguing how great or awful ST XI is!

 

[Falcor5]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

If they get an exact me with the same memories, strengths, and faults, it IS me.

So you are saying that if you were attacked by a clone that precisely mimicked you down to the last detail, you'd let it win the fight and kill you on the grounds that once you were dead there would be a copy of you so you'd still be alive?

Doesn't that argument go both ways? If I'm willing to let my clone kill me, shouldn't my clone, if it is identical, be willing to let me kill it? Hell, if we're identical, then why did my clone suddenly attack me when I wasn't inclined to attack it?

Anyone ever see the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie The 6th Day? Reminds me of this. Arnold and his clone worked together but it was freaky seeing the bad guys dying and not caring because they knew their clone would be back for revenge.

 

[polyharmonic]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

When you start talking about souls you get into the metaphysical, which Trek has hardly ever focused on. Closest they came was with Spock's "soul" being removed from his dying body and put back in when the body was regenerated and even then it's hard because he wasn't human.

That's what forums like this are for which is for us to delve into it using the show as foundation for thought-provoking discussion. That's my purpose in bringing this up anyway.

At least a few people have said basically "it doesn't matter to them if they die as long as their duplicate carries on". I can't imagine this being but a VERY minority view however.

Now others have suggested that the consciousness is just the sub-atomic and quantum arrangment of matter and energy. Thus when you are re-constituted your consciousness continues on after that "interruption". But if that were true, then how would you account for episodes like Tuvix and Second Chances (where we meet "Tom" Riker)?

To me Tuvix is the equivalent of a child and Tuvok and Neelix were his parents. Tuvix is clearly (to me) a new INDIVIDUAL consciousness apart from Tuvok and Neelix from by combing the two DNA but also retaining their memories. I don't buy that he was a combined consciousness like, say, a Trill. And that also means that the transporter CAN create new souls or new consciousness.

And if Tuvix is a new consciousness (like an offspring) then while Tuvix was alive, Tuvok and Neelix were DEAD. Actually that brings up another point. Were the Tuvok and Neelix re-created from Tuvix at the end truly their original selves resuming or were they actually duplicates???

And then with Tom and Will Riker again how could we reconcile this event with the idea of the migration of the soul? Before the transporter accident, Riker was one person. So either his "soul" travelled to one of the two Rikers afterwards OR his soul was destroyed and too new souls created in his stead after the transporter accident.

If we IGNORE all other contradictory episodes of Trek and solely focused on Tuvix and Second Chances as the foundation of discussion ONLY then the only implication is that new consciousness is being created when beings re-materialized rather than their souls were continuous or resumed.

 

[Thestral]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

On the soul and the question of a clone attacking you and on transporting in general.

If you don't know that your body is being destroyed and replaced with an exact duplicate, with all your memories, senses, strengths, and weaknesses, and a transfer of your hypothetical (though not hypothetical to me) soul, how does it affect you? How do any of us know that every time we sleep, our body is not destroyed and reconstituted exactly? Or in other words, if a tree falls in the forest and so on. So I would go through the transporter (once it's safe) even knowing my body will be destroyed and an exact duplicate created because I wouldn't know beyond a factual knowledge.

There's no way to know about the soul except your own beliefs and what makes sense. Based on what we see 99.9% of the time in ST, I am comfortable in believing that my soul would be transferred along with my pattern consciousness or whatever.

A clone attacking you to replace you (the doeppelgaenger) is different because in that case you have two clearly distinct beings with two distinct souls. With the hypothetical transporter situation, there is only one being, only one soul.

 

[polyharmonic]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

With the hypothetical transporter situation, there is only one being, only one soul.

So when Tuvix was created from two souls what happened to one of the souls??? And when Tom Riker and Will Riker were both created from one original soul where did the other soul come from???

If all we ever saw was "one soul in one soul out" then I can understand people trusting it on faith. But when two souls go in and one soul comes out or one soul goes in and two souls come out, there is GOOD REASON to lose faith that transporters transfer your actual soul or consciousness.

At that point people would have to wonder if souls are being transported or if souls are actually being created and destroyed.

 

[Destructor]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

If you don't know that your body is being destroyed and replaced with an exact duplicate, with all your memories, senses, strengths, and weaknesses, and a transfer of your hypothetical (though not hypothetical to me) soul, how does it affect you?

I think the argument here is that your soul is NOT re-created when you transport, that when YOU (the person looking out from behind your eyes right now reading these words) step into the transporter, YOU are gone. An identical CLONE of you comes out the other side, but it's ANOTHER person is now looking out from behind those eyes. They have your memories and such and believe they are you, but they're not, you're dead. It makes no difference to US or THEM they you died, but it makes an infinite cosmos of difference to you, because you're dead! Saying that there is an exact duplicate of you doesn't help that, because you're dead. Your duplicate thinks you're not dead, but they're wrong. You, yourself, are dead.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Of course, if souls don't actually exist, this entire point is moot.

 

[plynch]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Of course, if souls don't actually exist, this entire point is moot.

You beat me to it.

All you soul people - you think the soul sort of "lives in" the body? And it needs a body/home until the body "dies" and then (and only then) the soul can go free and doesn't need a body to live in?

Please don't get defensive -- this is a great thread so far -- I'm just trying to get clarification.

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Tuvix was a chimera of sorts, two seperate beings, "Spliced" into one.

Each individual was fused together to create, what some would call a single being. Tuvix was a product of nothing more than a malfunction with the Transporter Systems, he wasn't an individual by any means.

By letting Tuvix live, two other members of Voyager's crew would have died. All accidents are made to be corrected, this is what was done.

If we look at the history of the Transporter System itself and then look at the number of Transporter accidents, it is safe to say that the use of the Transporter has no implications.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

All accidents are made to be corrected, this is what was done.

Even happy accidents?
Not to take the statement out of context, but how do you define an accident? Some people would call homosexuality an accident and claim that I was "meant" to be straight...but I would be greatly offended by this notion.

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Even happy accidents?
Not to take the statement out of context, but how do you define an accident? Some people would call homosexuality an accident and claim that I was "meant" to be straight...but I would be greatly offended by this notion.

Happy Accidents do not exist, if something unexpected is good it is a surprise.

Homosexuality is a combination of genetic, environmental and behavioural factors, it really is a different situation. I consider homosexuality a next step in natures evolutionary process.

In the case of Tuvix, both Tuvok and Neelix were born and created as individuals, by using a technology that failed they were spliced together to create this seperate being.

The malfunction of the Transporter Systems was the accident, which led to the creation of said individual. If he was truly meant to exist, then nature would have found a natural way.

 

[polyharmonic]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Each individual was fused together to create, what some would call a single being. Tuvix was a product of nothing more than a malfunction with the Transporter Systems, he wasn't an individual by any means.

By letting Tuvix live, two other members of Voyager's crew would have died. All accidents are made to be corrected, this is what was done.

If we look at the history of the Transporter System itself and then look at the number of Transporter accidents, it is safe to say that the use of the Transporter has no implications.

There was a really good long thread on the whether it was right or not to kill Tuvix.
http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=73462
There was no consensus about whether it was right or wrong. But that topic is for that thread.

Back to transporters though, there is no way you can say that Tuvix and Second Chances episode have no implications for transporter use or for the meaning of sentience or consciousness whatsoever.

When Tuvix was created, it is very likely to say that Tuvok and/or Neelix were ALREADY dead! There were alive in Tuvix only in the sense that two parents "live on" in their offspring. That is unless you want to argue that Tuvix was like a Trill and literally had two consciousnesses in one physical body. But the Tuvix episode implied he was a new single individual consciousness formed by combining their DNA (exactly like an offspring of two parents). Again unless Tuvix had multiple consciousness within the same body, Tuvok and/or Neelix (at least one of the two) DIED ALREADY.

So IF Tuvix, was for all intents and purposes, is equivalent to a new offspring, then it reasonable to theorize that:
1) The transporter "mated" Tuvok and Neelix into Tuvix the offspring. But in the process, the "parents" were killed. (unless you want to argue that Tuvix had multiple consciousnesses within him like a Trill)
2) When Tuvok and Neelix were "extracted" from Tuvix, they were simply creating duplicates of Tuvok and Neelix using Tuvix as the source material.

The thing about Tuvix and Second Chances is that consciousnesses are in fact created and destroyed. That is a direct implication! When Tuvix was created at least one consciousness was destroyed. When Tom/Will Riker were both created, at least one new consciousness was created. Based on these two episodes as well as others, it is quite clear that consciousnesses are being created and destroyed because there is no other sensible conclusion.

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Your comparison between two people mating to create an offspring and the case of Tuvix are completely different.

Two people mate to create an individual that will carry on their genetic material, Tuvix was created by a Transporter Malfunction that took the matter and bio-patterns and fused them together.

Had the procedure to seperate the two original individuals not been a relatively straight forward procedure, then we could argue that Tuvix had a right to live.

I realise that your comment regarding the other thread was made to discourage off topic posts, but if we are to consider the true implications of using Transporter technology then these points of view must also be debated.

As a famous Vulcan once said,

"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few."