Just having seen TUC last night, I couldn't really identify any scene in which Spock gives Kirk orders. Besides, Kirk does seem to be in full command of the Enterprise.
Do any of you good people know what this MA bit of trivia is referring to?
TUC: Spock in "full command"?
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Just having seen TUC last night, I couldn't really identify any scene in which Spock gives Kirk orders. Besides, Kirk does seem to be in full command of the Enterprise.
Do any of you good people know what this MA bit of trivia is referring to?
It actually seems that Spock is aboard the ship as mere passenger (and leading diplomat) for the first half of the mission, until Kirk is captured and taken away. He doesn't appear to be doing anything ship-related, except express idle curiosity at neutrino emissions (without even bothering to inform the apparent person in charge of the bridge, Chekov, of his findings before phoning Kirk).
Once Kirk is gone, though, nobody seems to object to Spock taking over. But at that point, he cannot by definition give Kirk any orders; it seems MA is again simply inaccurate.
Timo Saloniemi
Once Kirk is gone, though, nobody seems to object to Spock taking over. But at that point, he cannot by definition give Kirk any orders; it seems MA is again simply inaccurate.
Timo Saloniemi
Unless we argue that Spock was in command of the diplomatic mission, and would have been able to order Kirk around even if Kirk were a Fleet Admiral and had six starships under his command. Spock did sort of order Kirk to do the mission in the first place, after all.
But it's difficult to find any orders from Spock, either relating to operating the ship or to conducting the mission, that would have been directed at Kirk during the shipboard events of the movie. That is, I can't spot any.
Timo Saloniemi
The only time Spock was ever in command of the Enterprise was in TWOK and even then, Kirk was still his superior officer, Spock was an instructor and Captain of a training ship, Kirk obviously oversaw the training of Cadets and was no doubt responsible for evaluation of their instructors (hence "I assume your loitering around here to learn what efficiency rating I give your Cadets")
MA obviously has this wrong, Spock has never given Kirk orders...unless you include Star Trek XI, which is set within an alternate universe to the main series
Post TVH, Kirk and Spock both share the same rank (its interesting because in contemporary militaries, if you recieve a demotion, then the people who you then share a rank with are counted as your superiors, as a consequence of demotion, if this was to be applied to Starfleet, then heck, Kirk would have to take orders from Scotty :P) However this isn't the case as Kirk is in command of the Ent-A, he is Spock, et al's superior officer, despite sharing the same rank with two of his officers, therefore they have to take orders from him and the chain of command works to this system as well
For better clarification, check out DS9, where Dax is in command of the Defiant on occasions, despite being outranked, even by Worf (who is not only a Command Division Officer, but also was promoted to Lt Commander some time before Jadzia) again even as a Lt Commander, Jadzia was called Captain while commanding the ship (as naval tradition dictates)
Another example is VOY, where Ensign Harry Kim, despite being outranked by several officers, such as Lt Chapman, Lt Carey and Lt Fernandez, he was their superior officer, as Chief Of Operations, Harry Kim, despite his rank was classed as a Senior Officer, therefore anyone higher in rank than Kim, who was not a Senior Officer, had to address him as "Sir"
As Timo indicated, Spock may have well been in Command of the Diplomatic Mission, however as Kirk was Commander of the Ent-A, the only thing Spock could do is order Kirk where to take the ship, what courtesies to extend and arrangements of security, specialist personnel, etc
MA obviously has this wrong, Spock has never given Kirk orders...unless you include Star Trek XI, which is set within an alternate universe to the main series
Post TVH, Kirk and Spock both share the same rank (its interesting because in contemporary militaries, if you recieve a demotion, then the people who you then share a rank with are counted as your superiors, as a consequence of demotion, if this was to be applied to Starfleet, then heck, Kirk would have to take orders from Scotty :P) However this isn't the case as Kirk is in command of the Ent-A, he is Spock, et al's superior officer, despite sharing the same rank with two of his officers, therefore they have to take orders from him and the chain of command works to this system as well
For better clarification, check out DS9, where Dax is in command of the Defiant on occasions, despite being outranked, even by Worf (who is not only a Command Division Officer, but also was promoted to Lt Commander some time before Jadzia) again even as a Lt Commander, Jadzia was called Captain while commanding the ship (as naval tradition dictates)
Another example is VOY, where Ensign Harry Kim, despite being outranked by several officers, such as Lt Chapman, Lt Carey and Lt Fernandez, he was their superior officer, as Chief Of Operations, Harry Kim, despite his rank was classed as a Senior Officer, therefore anyone higher in rank than Kim, who was not a Senior Officer, had to address him as "Sir"
As Timo indicated, Spock may have well been in Command of the Diplomatic Mission, however as Kirk was Commander of the Ent-A, the only thing Spock could do is order Kirk where to take the ship, what courtesies to extend and arrangements of security, specialist personnel, etc
Modern day, as I understand it, If I'm hold the rank of Commander and am in command of a ship (I'm the captain) and you come aboard, holding the rank of Captain, that doesn't make you the Captain of the ship.
If say, you give an order to the helmsman and I give a different order, the helmsman follow my order, even though you out rank me, because I'm the "captain of the ship" and you're not.
Sarek, during Journey to Babal, could not have assumed command of the Enterprise, even though it was on a diplomatic mission.
Ambassador Fox had it seems specific special powers granted to him.
The only time Spock might have been giving a order or instruction to Kirk was one time he loudly cleared his throat, if I'm remembering the correct movie.
If say, you give an order to the helmsman and I give a different order, the helmsman follow my order, even though you out rank me, because I'm the "captain of the ship" and you're not.
Sarek, during Journey to Babal, could not have assumed command of the Enterprise, even though it was on a diplomatic mission.
Ambassador Fox had it seems specific special powers granted to him.
The only time Spock might have been giving a order or instruction to Kirk was one time he loudly cleared his throat, if I'm remembering the correct movie.
I think almost all the dialogue indicated that Kirk was in command of the Enterprise. In the starfleet briefing the head guy talks about the "Enterprise under [Kirk's] command." And later on Spock speaks of Valeris replacing his position on the ship so it is unlikely that Spock was in command except for when Kirk and McCoy were captured.
Perhaps M-A misconstrued Spock's influence over Kirk as to "volunteering" for the escort mission and to getting Kirk to invite the Klingon's to dinner?
Perhaps M-A misconstrued Spock's influence over Kirk as to "volunteering" for the escort mission and to getting Kirk to invite the Klingon's to dinner?
I never even gave this any thought. What was it Edith Keeler said? "Like he belongs at your side, and always will be." Something like that.
Spock initiated the peace movement and recommended Kirk for the mission, but onboard he was Kirk's first officer. When Kirk was arrested by the Klingon's, he assumed command. Is this really being debated?
Spock initiated the peace movement and recommended Kirk for the mission, but onboard he was Kirk's first officer. When Kirk was arrested by the Klingon's, he assumed command. Is this really being debated?
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