TUC - not aged well

[Timo]

...Why worry about torture when the plan all along was for everybody to die anyway?

Whether Marcus' position is a rational one, we can't tell yet, not getting too many hints on how evil and powerful and aggressive the Klingons in this universe really are. All we have seen so far is them showing great restraint! Intruding warships, firefights on the surface of the homeworld, many warriors killed - and "one year later" no sign of war yet.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nebusj]

Just going back to my comment about why it was necessary to force information out of Valeris.... a lot of the woman protests about Spock forcibly probing Valeris's mind also strangely overlook the fact that Valeris is a traitor and a murderer.

And that makes it okay to torture her! Yay for the good guys!

 

[eyeresist]

^ "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - George Orwell (attributed)

In defence of the VI conspirators, I do think that, while their actions and methods are of course reprehensible, they have a strong argument.

In the initial scenes, the peace overtures seem very radical. "Dismantling Starbases along the border" against a race that upholds war as a virtue

I agree that it's much easier to sympathise with Valeris & Co. In TUC the Klingons seem like a real threat. I don't know how much of this is due to viewer awareness of backstory, but the movie does give the sense that the Empire is large and the mood is desperate. In STID the Klingon threat is vague. The only Klingons we meet are a bunch of mooks.

Marcus says "Since we first learned of their existence, the Klingon Empire has conquered and occupied two planets that we know of and fired on our ships half a dozen times."
So obviously they're not nice, but you don't necessarily get a sense of imminent threat.

EDIT: Sorry, Timo, I realise you were making a similar point above.

 

[drt]

...Why worry about torture when the plan all along was for everybody to die anyway?

Whether Marcus' position is a rational one, we can't tell yet, not getting too many hints on how evil and powerful and aggressive the Klingons in this universe really are. All we have seen so far is them showing great restraint! Intruding warships, firefights on the surface of the homeworld, many warriors killed - and "one year later" no sign of war yet.

Timo Saloniemi

Although, it doesn't appear Enterprise was detected in STID, and the firefight on the surface didn't obviously involve a Federation ship (if there were survivors at all). The Empire may have blamed pirates or something.

Although I do agree with you and eyeresist that they don't appear to be that aggressive.

 

[Timo]

I gather Marcus had planned that firing the "stealthy" missiles would give away the position of the Enterprise and result in a bloodbath. That obviously didn't happen...

Would killing all the cops let the robber get away scot free in the future, though?

Even today, police cruisers may have the ability to send video in real time, so first gunning down the officer and then setting fire on the cruiser won't help conceal what happened (even though ski masks will protect the identity and freedom of the bad guys for a while). Klingon interceptors ought to have had comparable abilities, down to sending imagery of obvious humans (if not actually obvious Starfleeters) to HQ.

I mean, we didn't get the feeling of "rogue" Klingons this time around, but rather of coordinated and disciplined operations between three or more shipfuls of them, doing patrol rounds on a location that didn't exactly appeal to glory seekers. There would be a HQ involved.

But agreed that the heroes probably also avoided detection and identification to an unusual degree - after all, Kirk did believe that his mission would be stealthy and not ignite a war with 100% certainty, so the measures that were in place (or were claimed by Marcus to be in place) may have protected them.

ST:ID and ST6:TUC share this feature of the Klingons not exactly managing to guard their borders - but that is nothing special. The borders of empires always leak in Trek. It's just that the incidents within go largely unnoticed and unchallenged there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Just going back to my comment about why it was necessary to force information out of Valeris.... a lot of the woman protests about Spock forcibly probing Valeris's mind also strangely overlook the fact that Valeris is a traitor and a murderer.

And that makes it okay to torture her! Yay for the good guys!

Well, it makes it just as 'ok' as it ever is in any other movie situation. Moreso, since mind melds guarantee actual accurate results, so there's not some chance that it was all for nothing in the end, and they don't even have to be painful at all. The ultimate point being that this wasn't some unbelievably uncharacteristic action that was way over the line of what's normal in movies - it was simply the often used classic trope of a group of desperate heroes taking the least bad option to end a desperate situation.

 

[somebuddyX]

20 years ago, this was my favourite Trek movie, now I seriously dislike it. Why has it aged so badly?

The film is exactly as it was 20 years ago, it's you and your perceptions that've aged.

I love this quote. There's been a lot of things I've changed my opinion on for different reasons over the years. I like that this happens though.

 

[Paradise City]

I think this film has aged conspicuously well actually. The only thing that pulls it down in this respect are the digital clock displays on the bridge which do look quite out of time.

 

[Solarbaby]

I think this film is the closest to the spirit of TOS. It was a film ofit's time. But isn't every film the same? It was a great film storywise, an intense thriller and a linear easy to follow plot. All the cast got a decent amount of screentime for once.

I wonder if we'll look back at Nu trekfilms in 20 years times and think they're dated because of the ridiculous ipod docking station-esque bridge and annoying lens flares and unnecessary action scenes that move so fast it's difficult to take in any detail.

 

[Timo]

Or that they're dated because of so little camera movement, such slow-paced action scenes, and such static imagery overall that it looks like a stage play, in comparison to the standards of the 2020s?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[drt]

Going to concur with Timo, they're going to look dated because stuff will undoubtedly be crazier in the future.

 

[Buzzinpoa]

I don't think it aged badly...! It's my second best movie, being Trek II my prefered one...!

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The Spock/Valeris mind meld scene was supposed to be controversial, guys. You're supposed to wonder if Spock did the right thing for the right reasons.

Sulu's cut line "If it ever came down to betraying my friend or betraying my country, I always hoped that I'd have the guts to betray my country" was supposed to inspire debate as well.

Art is supposed to ask questions, not bellow answers.

 

[JWPlatt]

Art is supposed to ask questions, not bellow answers.

Ah, the Lindelof philosophy of Lost, Prometheus, et al.

No. Artists get to choose their mode of art. What is supposed is up to the artist and not dictated by some authoritative predisposition such as your stilted language, as if answers are intrinsically bellowed.

I do find the story of Sulu's cut line interesting. I hadn't heard it.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Art is supposed to ask questions, not bellow answers.

Ah, the Lindelof philosophy of Lost, Prometheus, et al.

No, that's just introducing mysteries with absolutely no idea of how to pay them off.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Chekov didn't fare well in any of the films.

I always thought of him as the educated idiot. He's super smart with a wide knowledge base but has no common sense. Sadly, Spock is the smartest one in the room so Chekov was eventually relegated to just having no common sense.

That's strange, considering how good the character is as portrayed by Andy Bray and Anton Yelchin in Phase II and the Abrams films respectively (in one of the Phase II episodes, he's shown as giving good advice to Peter Kirk and is an amazingly competent officer in another [and is great as an older officer in Renegades]) as well as being quite good in the Abrams movies. I guess they let him slip, and Koening didn't really care so long as he got to act.

 

[eyeresist]

I do find the story of Sulu's cut line interesting. I hadn't heard it.

That's "rent a quote" Meyer again - he got it from EM Forster.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I do find the story of Sulu's cut line interesting. I hadn't heard it.

That's "rent a quote" Meyer again - he got it from EM Forster.

Well, people quote things in life, you know.

 

[drt]

Chekov didn't fare well in any of the films.

I always thought of him as the educated idiot. He's super smart with a wide knowledge base but has no common sense. Sadly, Spock is the smartest one in the room so Chekov was eventually relegated to just having no common sense.

That's strange, considering how good the character is as portrayed by Andy Bray and Anton Yelchin in Phase II and the Abrams films respectively (in one of the Phase II episodes, he's shown as giving good advice to Peter Kirk and is an amazingly competent officer in another [and is great as an older officer in Renegades]) as well as being quite good in the Abrams movies. I guess they let him slip, and Koening didn't really care so long as he got to act.

Probably just more of an effort to give Chekov some character in those productions, I think in the TOS movies they just didn't care.

 

[Kor]

Chekov was a bit of comedy relief in the TOS movies.

Kor