TUC - not aged well

[eyeresist]

If a fleet of Klingon ships moved in to blockade Khitomer against Kirk, Chang might get his war all right - but he wanted it to look as if the UFP started it all. The assassination of Gorkon was carefully engineered so that either side could claim innocence and victimization and blame the other for the aggression; blockading Khitomer with a fleet of Klingon warships wouldn't achieve that.

I don't think Chang would care much about seeming innocent. Unprovoked attacks seem part of the Klingon ethic. But to turn that attack into a full-on war would require the UFP to respond militarily rather than diplomatically. So the point of the assassination must be to make the UFP regard the Klingons as an implacable threat.

But however you look at it, having the assassination carried out by a human disguised as a Klingon is stupid.

 

[jaime]

The problem with TUC and it's aging is in part our own aging....I was about 11, all the action was great, and all you needed was shatner in uniform and it was Kirk. It's only as an adult that I realised that practically everyone in the film is acting out of character, and it's the racism in particular that does that. The Klingon Empire as USSR is good Sci fi allegory.
The Klingons as victims of racism, particularly in terms of African Americans, is awful. Really really bad. Painting the federation, and the enterprise crew as having unjustified prejudice....just fails.
You don't go and explore strange new world's and seek out new life and new civilisations so you can sneer at eating habits and say they smell. It's a bad parody of a colonialism that never existed outside of actual racist thinking, and just doesn't wash as anything more than clumsy. Even the actors hated the lines to the point of some refusing to say them.

All of this...you don't notice unless you are sitting down and thinking about it. Which after so many years, people eventually get round to doing.

In many ways it's anti trek....which was always about mankind no longer being as flawed as a group. Valeris finding one or two 'racists' to assist her is almost unbelievable, but to find the entire bridge crew is also? Makes no sense in the context of the rest of trek, even TFF got that aspect right. In fact, this film makes some of that film worse by altering our perceptions of the Klingon and Federation interaction at the end of that film.
Chekhov and Sulu are now eying up an attractive savage, and Scotty isn't amazed that he's sharing a drink with an enemy in the spirit of peace, he's a colonialist stereotype introducing civilised culture to an inferior species in his eyes. It's a nonsense.
It fails and becomes offensive by even making the comparison, using specific quotes, that apply specifically to the American history of civil rights etc....Klingons are an enemy nation, the wall is coming down in space...it's not segregation from a victimised group being ended. Klingons are eventually being integrated into wider federation society, an already multi species culture, as the groups are no longer at war. They were not at war because of cultural differences like food, the federation should not be portrayed as a great colonial stereotype that wanted to civilise the barbarians, and now accepts some barbarian ways out of some noble spirit.
Which is how the film ends up portraying things.
It makes for uncomfortable viewing and actually starts reflecting the whole trek universe badly by association, but only if you think about it too much.

It really sits uncomfortably alongside later trek, and not even much later...multi species crew members, better racial mix of human crew (by American television standards) and outside of early Tng Picard grandstanding, far less of the Noble Savage nonsense that is at its Nadir here in TUC.

Oh...and yeah, the scenes added for home release are really really awful, and Kirk's homing beacon defies all sensible thought.

 

[FormerLurker]

I hesitate to respond, but I'll try. Whether you accept it or not is up to you:

The racism in TUC was never meant to be about African Americans, or African British, or whatever(calling an Englishman an African American because he's black is the height of racism, by the way). It was meant to be a callback to the rampant racism the West expressed toward the Soviet people. Journalists who weren't careful to guard their "Commie Pinko" hate jargon in their writings and TV reportings were often fired, even if their bosses felt the same way, because of the dispassion that journalism was supposed to express, a dispassion that is sorely missing anymore.

With Soviet leaders like Stalin being responsible for more deaths of his own citizens than the Nazis' attempted extermination of European Jews, it wasn't difficult to imagine them being monsters that dragged their knuckles, ate raw meat, and didn't pull their pants down to go to the bathroom. That we in the West were aghast at supposed behaviors that secretly we knew were the worst we could see ourselves doing seemed to be beside the point.

For the record, many of the scripted lines that expressed the worst sentiments of racism among the Starfleet crew were carried over from rants and diatribes in op-ed columns in the US, directed at Soviet citizens that were, one way or another, brought to the public's attention. I personally remember similar harangues directed at Soviet athletes during the 1968, 1972 and 1976 Olympics by Pro-West commentators, on the street, and even on TV.

What makes it bad is that so much of it is so close as to be indistinguishable from the racism against people of color that has been such a dismal part of life in the US all along. Every line that the cast refused to say was either dropped or rewritten to get the point across that we may be racist and not realize it until we're confronted with it in ourselves, while at the same time making it plain that we can rise above what we were, and become better for it. Which is exactly the lesson Star Trek has been trying to get across on the subject from the beginning.

Oh and Kirk's homing beacon? All it was was a piece of fabric soaked in Viridium, that any Starfleet vessel could scan for and detect over I don't know how many light years. It wasn't supposed to send out a signal, just be something the Enterprise knew to look for. Which is actually eminently sensible.

 

[Paradise City]

Here you are dealing with the exact inverse of the Federation. Incorrigibly prone to war, the Klingon Empire is diametrically opposed to what the Federation is about. Federation types must find the Klingon Empire impossible to grasp and perplexing at minimum. This is somewhat reflected in DS9 with the brief Klingon-Federation war arc which becomes quite gritty with cynical war weary people. Zero sum warfare and the return of scarcity has ideals going straight out the window. Conventional logic would suggest that the Klingons are irreconcilable.

We often hear mention of large adversaries engage in skirmishes and raids on border colonies in undeclared periods of hostility. That too will create pools of very resentful Federation citizens.

Starfleet types are soldiers who are charged with the defense of paradise. It's not unbelievable that a Starfleet frontline veteran can become brutalised and fatigued in some fundamental way and with Kirk, he lost his ship and a son whom he only knew briefly. The guy might very well be smouldering with anger as we see in the film and he very plausibly wouldn't be the only one.

 

[jaime]

I hesitate to respond, but I'll try. Whether you accept it or not is up to you:

The racism in TUC was never meant to be about African Americans, or African British, or whatever(calling an Englishman an African American because he's black is the height of racism, by the way). It was meant to be a callback to the rampant racism the West expressed toward the Soviet people. Journalists who weren't careful to guard their "Commie Pinko" hate jargon in their writings and TV reportings were often fired, even if their bosses felt the same way, because of the dispassion that journalism was supposed to express, a dispassion that is sorely missing anymore.

With Soviet leaders like Stalin being responsible for more deaths of his own citizens than the Nazis' attempted extermination of European Jews, it wasn't difficult to imagine them being monsters that dragged their knuckles, ate raw meat, and didn't pull their pants down to go to the bathroom. That we in the West were aghast at supposed behaviors that secretly we knew were the worst we could see ourselves doing seemed to be beside the point.

For the record, many of the scripted lines that expressed the worst sentiments of racism among the Starfleet crew were carried over from rants and diatribes in op-ed columns in the US, directed at Soviet citizens that were, one way or another, brought to the public's attention. I personally remember similar harangues directed at Soviet athletes during the 1968, 1972 and 1976 Olympics by Pro-West commentators, on the street, and even on TV.

What makes it bad is that so much of it is so close as to be indistinguishable from the racism against people of color that has been such a dismal part of life in the US all along. Every line that the cast refused to say was either dropped or rewritten to get the point across that we may be racist and not realize it until we're confronted with it in ourselves, while at the same time making it plain that we can rise above what we were, and become better for it. Which is exactly the lesson Star Trek has been trying to get across on the subject from the beginning.

Oh and Kirk's homing beacon? All it was was a piece of fabric soaked in Viridium, that any Starfleet vessel could scan for and detect over I don't know how many light years. It wasn't supposed to send out a signal, just be something the Enterprise knew to look for. Which is actually eminently sensible.

I don't think I referred to any any Englishman as African American in my post. Largely because when trek deals with racial differences or discrimination, as here, it usually comes over as very much based in its own more recent past which has its own very unique set up. As a brit, it often seems really.....weird. I don't even like using the term African American, but it seems the shortest way to describe someone with experiences and identity linked in any way to that. So...apologies for any offence, is there an English actor in TUC?
My problem with the racist tones in the film are that they simply don't fit with the established characters. It just doesn't work that these people would have such 20th century styled prejudices (they smell....only top of the line models can even speak....they eat funny food) and rarely do they come over as Russian stereotype prejudices (hard drinking klingons come later)

And the patch...Yeah I know what it was. It sticks out like a sore thumb, would have been noticed and questioned. Kirk even keeping his uniform makes sense only if he's sent to something like a ww2 style POW camp, let alone the Klingons not noticing a piece of lint that size emitting something a starship can track from a very very long way away indeed. And aside from Spocks least subtle fondle ever, how does Kirk know it's there? When did they have time to come up with the plan?
A conversation in the transporter room where McCoy injects something traceable under the guise of 'their engine may be leaking' after a veiled discussion with Spock and Kirk would make sense.
Radioactive Lint does not.
Good thing he didn't lose his coat in that fight.

In terms of the

 

[Timo]

Why would it need to be openly revealed to be a disguise though? For all anyone outside of the conspiracy knows, the assassin successfully escaped.

I was just addressing the idea of catching the assassin. There's no point in doing that unless the assassin is then questioned, put on trial or whatever, meaning he will be unmasked. West could well be gunned down at vaporize setting after establishing himself as a Klingon, thus serving Cartwright's interests. But probably not Chang's interests, so his troops wouldn't vaporize West. Would "honest" Klingon or Starfleet guards shoot to kill before questioning? Hard to tell. So in order to be sure, Cartwright best make sure West's Klingon face gets seen, then make sure his human one does not...

For me, the more natural target here is Azetbuhr. Simply put, the Klingons aren't going to forever tolerate having their leaders being picked off willy nilly at various peace conferences.

And Chang would certainly want her dead, too, now that it's shown that she isn't going to be a puppet for him. And the buzz at Rura Penthe seemed to confirm the Klingons were in on an assassination plan, too - perhaps Chang had one of his own, parallel to the West effort?

I don't think Chang would care much about seeming innocent. Unprovoked attacks seem part of the Klingon ethic. But to turn that attack into a full-on war would require the UFP to respond militarily rather than diplomatically. So the point of the assassination must be to make the UFP regard the Klingons as an implacable threat.

No UFP response is required. All Chang needs is for the Klingons to act, and unprovoked will do if no casus belli can be engineered.

What's stopping him from doing that is Azetbuhr who refuses to attack. So his options are to depose and/or kill "the weak woman who fails to avenge the obvious UFP assassination of his equally weak father" on his own, or to have "the beloved leader who carries on the work of the sorely missed father" be killed by somebody who looks like a UFP crony. It seems here he's going for option B first, while perhaps keeping A as a backup plan.

It's not a particularly harebrained scheme overall: all the players here play it rather safe, with good chances of success, and all are amply motivated to act just like they do. Whether it goes against "the spirit of Star Trek" or not, I don't know. I never had a problem with it - in the end, the good guys triumph anyway, which requires the universe to work in the Star Trek fashion rather than in a more "realistic" or dystopic way.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jaime]

Thing is.....Ex Astris Scientia.
Starfleet types are explorers, and most of them haven't been fighting any war in a very long time. Even the cold war is even colder in trek, with even proxy conflicts as shown in Tos no longer really happening. Even the nature of the Klingon empire as the Ussr allegory is heavy handed in TUC, with stuff like the translators being extremely anachronistic. Between that and what is best summed up by looking at Chekhovs 'guess who's coming to dinner' line, the allegory here is the clumsiest or among the clumsiest in trek. Which is part of what makes it date so badly, because we get time to think about the story and what's being said and why.
It's why I have gone off the film certainly.
And why STV as a story actually hasn't dated as badly, and has probably gone up in popularity.

 

[Paradise City]

Thing is.....Ex Astris Scientia.
Starfleet types are explorers, and most of them haven't been fighting any war in a very long time. Even the cold war is even colder in trek, with even proxy conflicts as shown in Tos no longer really happening. Even the nature of the Klingon empire as the Ussr allegory is heavy handed in TUC, with stuff like the translators being extremely anachronistic. Between that and what is best summed up by looking at Chekhovs 'guess who's coming to dinner' line, the allegory here is the clumsiest or among the clumsiest in trek. Which is part of what makes it date so badly, because we get time to think about the story and what's being said and why.
It's why I have gone off the film certainly.
And why STV as a story actually hasn't dated as badly, and has probably gone up in popularity.

Starfleet have a huge defence purpose they like to downplay. They are estranged from the Klingons who are an incorrigibly warlike people who worship death and have no compulsion but to casually kill Federation citizens if their purpose suited them. They ain't readily likeable. Kirk himself has lost his ship, his son and the Enterprise crew know at first hand how destructive they can be. Kirk has even been a fugitive from a Klingon perspective. I can very plausibly see them harbour a strong antipathy towards them - particularly Kirk. O'Brien harbours similar sentiments towards the Cardassians.

What makes this film, nay topical - but timeless, is the doves versus hawks power struggle and Spock's creative vision in seizing the opportunity to win a just peace and a new understanding for the benefit of both the Klingons and the Federation. Most of the Federation and Starfleet brass share this vision. Most - but not all of course. Some of the Starfleet veterans don't, indeed and conspire to this end.

 

[jaime]

I agree for the most part.
Problem is when Meyer directs, starfleet becomes almost totally military, and technological advances are pushed backwards for the sake of his sailing ship naval mis en scene.
Here it's even in dialogue 'are we talking about mothballing the starfleet'

Well...no, because starfleet isn't all about the 'war' it's explicitly not about it in fact. Especially this war, that less than half a decade earlier saw a probe punch a swathe through federation space, take out its capital for a large period of time, and it seems the Klingons didn't so much as annexe a coffee shop in the name of the empire.
In the very last film, a possibly rogue Klingon or two end up helping save a federation ship and crew, and remove a threat to everyone.
A culture so alien to the federation appreciates Shakespeare at best, and at worst, because of a joke run into the ground, must have a societal or cultural background that makes Shakespeare relevant....and yet they are beyond the understanding of humanity or the federation? Clumsy.
Starfleet officers like kirk not trusting and instinctual hating the Klingons as enemies make sense. Finding their food, for a largely different biology, makes them have a dodgy stomach, hell, even finding the Klingon lynx effect isn't to their taste (though actually that's just more bad stereotype dialogue....sulu and chekhov were certainly following that female Klingon first officer close in her wake) make sense. Kind of.
The mid 20th century presentation of prejudice however....doesn't make sense when sat next to trek as a whole and these characters in particular. Thank goodness rodenberry had enough pull to ditch saavik allegedly, and bless the other actors for allegedly pulling for changes. It could have been terrible, as opposed to mostly hanging together if you don't think too hard, and being fun for 12 year old etc (apparently the golden age for science fiction, something I remind myself of when watching modern doctor who)

 

[Paradise City]

I agree for the most part.
Problem is when Meyer directs, starfleet becomes almost totally military, and technological advances are pushed backwards for the sake of his sailing ship naval mis en scene.
Here it's even in dialogue 'are we talking about mothballing the starfleet'

Well...no, because starfleet isn't all about the 'war' it's explicitly not about it in fact. Especially this war, that less than half a decade earlier saw a probe punch a swathe through federation space, take out its capital for a large period of time, and it seems the Klingons didn't so much as annexe a coffee shop in the name of the empire.
In the very last film, a possibly rogue Klingon or two end up helping save a federation ship and crew, and remove a threat to everyone.
A culture so alien to the federation appreciates Shakespeare at best, and at worst, because of a joke run into the ground, must have a societal or cultural background that makes Shakespeare relevant....and yet they are beyond the understanding of humanity or the federation? Clumsy.
Starfleet officers like kirk not trusting and instinctual hating the Klingons as enemies make sense. Finding their food, for a largely different biology, makes them have a dodgy stomach, hell, even finding the Klingon lynx effect isn't to their taste (though actually that's just more bad stereotype dialogue....sulu and chekhov were certainly following that female Klingon first officer close in her wake) make sense. Kind of.
The mid 20th century presentation of prejudice however....doesn't make sense when sat next to trek as a whole and these characters in particular. Thank goodness rodenberry had enough pull to ditch saavik allegedly, and bless the other actors for allegedly pulling for changes. It could have been terrible, as opposed to mostly hanging together if you don't think too hard, and being fun for 12 year old etc (apparently the golden age for science fiction, something I remind myself of when watching modern doctor who)

Chang isn't clumsy at all, given that he's an urbane and cultured individual that studies his enemy in depth and enjoys getting under their skin. He's a living challenge to the common prejudice that Klingons begin and end with their brutality. There's a lot of gamesmanship with Chang. I think he was well crafted character in fact and gives us another dimension to Klingon society whilst maintaining the warrior vibe. Shakespeare explores some universal themes, so it's by no means implausible that the Klingons have an approximate equivalent(s) somewhere in their own histories and I'm amused by the his subtle cultural chauvinism, with his mischievous interjection that the Klingons got to Shakespeare first. Chang is having fun needling the Feds and despite playin' a double game he's lovin' the role. I liked Chang alot.

Klingons could've attacked the Federation during the whale probe crisis. There's only so much you can shove into a film set mostly in 80's San Fran. Given the short tenure of the whale crisis one might surmise that any potential incursion was rebuffed. Maybe the Klingons didn't attack on some honour scruple but this might not necessarily be readily apparent to anyone else.

The Klingons were all for blowing Enterprise out of the sky in V. It's only Korrd having chilled out with Sybok that got the Klingons to chillax. A bit of a soiree though isn't going to erase the loss of his son, his ship and Kruge rebuffing him when Kirk extended his hand to Kruge in III before Kirk eventually had it with him and kicked him off the cliff!

You torment, kill, brutalise people over a long career on the frontlines they are going to be brutalised in one way or another and some of their ideals - whilst still at play - are nevertheless going to erode. That's what we see with Kirk and the more he nurses these pains, the more he smoulders. That's plausible stuff and frankly will be a part of the human condition as long as humans feel pain and loss.

The militaristic aspect within Starfleet, whilst remaining resolutely unofficial, seems to ebb and flow, grow and recede in step with galactic stability. I think that's interesting rather than being out of date. I get the impression that there is almost never an open war with the Federation. But alot of regular frontier instability in which border colonies are raided and attacked and this tests the Federation. Even comparatively minnows powers have a pop at some of their colonies as we see in TNG i.e the Rossa episode. This could very well be an era where the Federation is sorely tested requiring a tougher defence stance and later a much vaunted peace effort to herald in an era of stability when Starfleet can get cracking on exploring again. I think that's a believable and nuanced depiction of how the Federation might reasonably unfold.

 

[DWF]

Chang, Valeris and Cartwright are pretty stupid though any war between the Federaton and the Klingons only helsp out the Romulans. And it is rather odd that they got a pacist Vulcan who's one of Starfleet's best and brightest to go along with a plan to start a war.

 

[Paradise City]

Chang, Valeris and Cartwright are pretty stupid though any war between the Federaton and the Klingons only helsp out the Romulans. And it is rather odd that they got a pacist Vulcan who's one of Starfleet's best and brightest to go along with a plan to start a war.

There's nothing stupid about it, a preemptive strike in a time of vulnerability for a persistent adversary has a harsh logic to it. The Klingon Empire is uniquely weak and vulnerable given this seismic disaster. So, it makes sense to take that opportunity to reduce the Klingons to a third rate power with a quick war.

What's amusing is that the Romulan ambassador who moonlights as a closest conspirator is merrily sitting in on these sensitive Federation deliberations including a classified proposal to snatch Kirk & McCoy back from the Klingons.

 

[DWF]

Chang, Valeris and Cartwright are pretty stupid though any war between the Federaton and the Klingons only helsp out the Romulans. And it is rather odd that they got a pacist Vulcan who's one of Starfleet's best and brightest to go along with a plan to start a war.

There's nothing stupid about it, a preemptive strike in a time of vulnerability for a persistent adversary has a harsh logic to it. The Klingon Empire is uniquely weak and vulnerable given this seismic disaster. So, it makes sense to take that opportunity to reduce the Klingons to a third rate power with a quick war.

What's amusing is that the Romulan ambassador who moonlights as a closest conspirator is merrily sitting in on these sensitive Federation deliberations including a classified proposal to snatch Kirk & McCoy back from the Klingons.

You clearly misunderstood me, Cartwright, Valeris and Chang supposedly intellent people were the stupid ones. I said any war between the Klingons and the Federation woud only benefit the Romulans.

 

[Paradise City]

Chang, Valeris and Cartwright are pretty stupid though any war between the Federaton and the Klingons only helsp out the Romulans. And it is rather odd that they got a pacist Vulcan who's one of Starfleet's best and brightest to go along with a plan to start a war.

There's nothing stupid about it, a preemptive strike in a time of vulnerability for a persistent adversary has a harsh logic to it. The Klingon Empire is uniquely weak and vulnerable given this seismic disaster. So, it makes sense to take that opportunity to reduce the Klingons to a third rate power with a quick war.

What's amusing is that the Romulan ambassador who moonlights as a closest conspirator is merrily sitting in on these sensitive Federation deliberations including a classified proposal to snatch Kirk & McCoy back from the Klingons.

You clearly misunderstood me, Cartwright, Valeris and Chang supposedly intellent people were the stupid ones. I said any war between the Klingons and the Federation woud only benefit the Romulans.

If a quick war reduced the Klingons to a third rate power both the Romulans and the Federation would benefit. A Vulcan might be satisfied that such a warlike power and an affront to Vulcan principles are no longer a major threat to the Federation.

The Klingon conspirators just fancy their chances in battle and think they would go soft if they cavorted with the Feds. Moreover there's remarks from the Klingon officials that the Klingons are defeated anyway - with the disaster - so they might as well duke it out and die on their feet.

I said it earlier in the thread - conventional logic and realpolitik suggests whack such an incorrigibly warlike species whilst they are down and it takes the vision of Spock and the bulk of the Federation hierarchy to push for peace in this instance.

 

[DWF]

Even if the Federation won a war against the Klingons they'd both be too weak to stop the Romulans. Both Chang and Karla would've pressed for war and with the Federation's president dead seemingly killed by a Klingon the Federation would've wanted a victory and not sued for peace.

 

[Paradise City]

Even if the Federation won a war against the Klingons they'd both be too weak to stop the Romulans. Both Chang and Karla would've pressed for war and with the Federation's president dead seemingly killed by a Klingon the Federation would've wanted a victory and not sued for peace.

I would say that if the Federation mounted an attack they'd be a quagmire of some description and it would help the Romulans. I do think Cartwright and Co misread the Klingons on account of their prejudices but not implausibly so. If they could secure a quick victory over the Klingons it would help the Feds but a long one would not.

I can also reasonably see analysts come back with forecasts depicting precision strikes that would blunt alot of the Klingon military potential and given this and the handling of the consequences of a serious disaster they would not be able to mount an effective retaliatory response. And once defeated and shrunk to a third rate power, the bulk of the Federation forces could then be redeployed to guard the Romulan neutral zone. In the same way that the Soviet Union and America dominated the landscape after WW2.

 

[OpenMaw]

I never bought into the "mutual conspiracy" thing anyway. It just never worked out in my head. Not short or long term. These people hate each other too much to "ironically" work together to ensure war. They'd be too mistrusting of each other in order to carry it out.

Now if you had just one side working to conspire to make a war happen, yeah, that makes sense. Making use of mistrust? That too. But actively having Starfleet/Federation people working with the Klingons to start a war? nah. I can't buy that.

 

[Paradise City]

I never bought into the "mutual conspiracy" thing anyway. It just never worked out in my head. Not short or long term. These people hate each other too much to "ironically" work together to ensure war. They'd be too mistrusting of each other in order to carry it out.

Now if you had just one side working to conspire to make a war happen, yeah, that makes sense. Making use of mistrust? That too. But actively having Starfleet/Federation people working with the Klingons to start a war? nah. I can't buy that.

It's plausible. It might be crudely done here as in many films but it is plausible. Even throughout WW2 there was constant diplomatic traffic, peace feelers, conspiracies and whatnot underway typically via neutral capitals by influential persons close to government. It's very rare that a war would be so zero-sum that contacts of this sort wouldn't happen.

 

[eyeresist]

Well...no, because starfleet isn't all about the 'war' it's explicitly not about it in fact. Especially this war, that less than half a decade earlier saw a probe punch a swathe through federation space, take out its capital for a large period of time, and it seems the Klingons didn't so much as annexe a coffee shop in the name of the empire.

US armed forces never went to war against the USSR (not officially anyway), but were certainly "all about the war".

 

[jaime]

Their motto isn't Ex Oceania Scientia though. (made up Latin...don't tell my wife)

Defense capabilities are one thing, a service that expects to be mothballed due to a war ending? Kirk not once complaining about being characterised as a warrior, a soldier, a figurehead in this war?
I know some people think that Picard was the diplomat, and Tng the beginning of pacifist starfleet, but it's all there in Tos.
This film, and TWOK, make it much more militarised. And in the case of this one....ignore the characters to do so.
Someone mentioned Kirk reaching out a hand to Kruge in ST III. That's starfleet, that's kirk. It's also an aspect that is flung under the tracks of hammering an allegory into the ground here.

I have seen enough board arguments over starfleet as military to know that's a dead end, but military or not, in the Meyer films, it's more military than anywhere else (and less technologically advanced in order to really push that home (wool blankets, bunk beds, galleys, the captains table, literal torpedo tubes for extremely literal torpedoes, scientists at odds with the military over their work, universal translators replaced with a team of translators with walkie talkies, stacks of bone China with the ships name on, the transporters losing their safety features....I get the science fiction should always serve the story, but the story should stay true to the world when it's part of what amounts to a serial.) which works fine as long as you don't sit and think about it. Problem is, Trek has always been something that wants you to sit and think about the things it raises, particularly when doing an allegorical story.

Here....it's one of those times that someone heard you can do anything allegorical with sci-fi, particularly trek, and that the shorthand for Trek is sailships in space. Hornblower was part of the inspiration for Kirk, not for the show as a whole.
I have the same issue when 'western in space' gets taken too literally too...it takes away from my enjoyment of watching the future when I am just watching the past I'n sparkly clothes.

As I get older, and look at the whole span of trek, I come to appreciate TMP and even TFF more, and the grandstanding battle heavy stuff seems more something I enjoyed without thinking much as a child. That's a personal experience and not me saying VI and similar are childish. They just don't make much sense under closer viewing.