TUC - not aged well

[enterprisecvn65]

Chekov, Chief of Security in The Motion Picture, had to have Valeris tell him how phasers worked on starships in The Undiscovered Country.

Also as the Enterprise is flying illegally through Klingon space no one seemed to consider the possibility ahead of time they might be detected and asked to identify themselves.

Which leads to the scene where they have to whip out a bunch of books that just happen to have the questions the listening post asks them as well as the responses, which totally fool the Klingons despite the extremely disjointed and suspicious way Uhura replies.

 

[Ithekro]

It seems that had all the books on hand, it was just a matter of flipping through them all quickly enough to get the translations. Perhaps the local Klingon dialect was a problem.

Nomad's wiping of her mind likely removed her Academy gained knowledge of the Klingon Language, and her data tapes and such that made her job easier were blowing up on the original Enterprise. The new computer assisted system was fine and all, but as they said, the Universal Translator would be recognized. Perhaps in both directions.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

It seems that had all the books on hand, it was just a matter of flipping through them all quickly enough to get the translations. Perhaps the local Klingon dialect was a problem.

Nomad's wiping of her mind likely removed her Academy gained knowledge of the Klingon Language, and her data tapes and such that made her job easier were blowing up on the original Enterprise. The new computer assisted system was fine and all, but as they said, the Universal Translator would be recognized. Perhaps in both directions.

Yeah but you think that they would have been more prepared as to the likely questions they would be asked by a listening station instead of waiting for them to be asked and trying to find the answers in a panic.

Even if they couldn't use the universal translator to respond because it'd be recognized, you'd think they could use it off the comm system. So when they ask a question, Chekov could repeat it to the translator, get the answer and Uhura could repeat it to the Klingons.

 

[fireproof78]

It seems that had all the books on hand, it was just a matter of flipping through them all quickly enough to get the translations. Perhaps the local Klingon dialect was a problem.

Nomad's wiping of her mind likely removed her Academy gained knowledge of the Klingon Language, and her data tapes and such that made her job easier were blowing up on the original Enterprise. The new computer assisted system was fine and all, but as they said, the Universal Translator would be recognized. Perhaps in both directions.

Yeah but you think that they would have been more prepared as to the likely questions they would be asked by a listening station instead of waiting for them to be asked and trying to find the answers in a panic.

Even if they couldn't use the universal translator to respond because it'd be recognized, you'd think they could use it off the comm system. So when they ask a question, Chekov could repeat it to the translator, get the answer and Uhura could repeat it to the Klingons.

Does the translator work that way? That's a good question but if you don't understand the language, just repeating what the translator says could be just as obvious.

The novelization was interesting in that the listening post was bored, and either drunk or hung over. That, and it isn't the most honorable of posts

I know I have nostalgia goggles when it comes to TUC but it is still one of my favorite films. It has probably one of the most interesting introspections on the part of both Spock and Kirk. I think it also reflects the wear and tear that a war, even a cold war, can take on others. The psychological impact of viewing Klingons as enemies for so long, and suddenly they are attempting to make peace, it begs the question of how our heroes would respond.

Are there plots holes? Yes, but not ones that I find so grievous that I can't rationalize away or fill in the gaps based upon personal knowledge or the novel.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

It seems that had all the books on hand, it was just a matter of flipping through them all quickly enough to get the translations. Perhaps the local Klingon dialect was a problem.

Nomad's wiping of her mind likely removed her Academy gained knowledge of the Klingon Language, and her data tapes and such that made her job easier were blowing up on the original Enterprise. The new computer assisted system was fine and all, but as they said, the Universal Translator would be recognized. Perhaps in both directions.

Yeah but you think that they would have been more prepared as to the likely questions they would be asked by a listening station instead of waiting for them to be asked and trying to find the answers in a panic.

Even if they couldn't use the universal translator to respond because it'd be recognized, you'd think they could use it off the comm system. So when they ask a question, Chekov could repeat it to the translator, get the answer and Uhura could repeat it to the Klingons.

Does the translator work that way? That's a good question but if you don't understand the language, just repeating what the translator says could be just as obvious.

The novelization was interesting in that the listening post was bored, and either drunk or hung over. That, and it isn't the most honorable of posts

I know I have nostalgia goggles when it comes to TUC but it is still one of my favorite films. It has probably one of the most interesting introspections on the part of both Spock and Kirk. I think it also reflects the wear and tear that a war, even a cold war, can take on others. The psychological impact of viewing Klingons as enemies for so long, and suddenly they are attempting to make peace, it begs the question of how our heroes would respond.

Are there plots holes? Yes, but not ones that I find so grievous that I can't rationalize away or fill in the gaps based upon personal knowledge or the novel.

That's a good point that the Klingons manning the post weren't the best and the brightest and might have been drinking as well.

Still you think long pauses before their questions were answered and the voice doing it in a very halting way using strange phrasing might at least raise an eyebrow even amongst the loser Klingons assigned to this duty.

 

[Ithekro]

They clearly knew it wasn't a Klingon ship. Probably have had other subject races that aren't so good at Klingon come through before. (roughly 25 years before a Klingon was boasting that half the quadrant was learning to speak Klingonees).

Also one wonders how hard it is to pick out which Klingon dialect they are using with drunk. They did have to go though a bunch of different books to find the question the Klingons were using.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

They clearly knew it wasn't a Klingon ship. Probably have had other subject races that aren't so good at Klingon come through before. (roughly 25 years before a Klingon was boasting that half the quadrant was learning to speak Klingonees).

Also one wonders how hard it is to pick out which Klingon dialect they are using with drunk. They did have to go though a bunch of different books to find the question the Klingons were using.

All right you've swung me to believe it plausible the Klingons manning the post were incompetent losers and let them through. Lord knows I've seen enough people like that in my own job to realize they're everywhere.

I still have a hard time accepting though that, as soon as he ordered the Enterprise to enter Klingon space, Spock didn't tell the crew to prepare for a scenario where they might be questioned, round up any resources and even practice it using different dialects, so when it did happen they could respond in a more timely and believable fashion.

After it really isn't logical to assume any listening post they might encounter will be manned by drunk idiots who'll let them pass without much scrutiny.

 

[BillJ]

They clearly knew it wasn't a Klingon ship. Probably have had other subject races that aren't so good at Klingon come through before. (roughly 25 years before a Klingon was boasting that half the quadrant was learning to speak Klingonees).

Also one wonders how hard it is to pick out which Klingon dialect they are using with drunk. They did have to go though a bunch of different books to find the question the Klingons were using.

All right you've swung me to believe it plausible the Klingons manning the post were incompetent losers and let them through. Lord knows I've seen enough people like that in my own job to realize they're everywhere.

I still have a hard time accepting though that, as soon as he ordered the Enterprise to enter Klingon space, Spock didn't tell the crew to prepare for a scenario where they might be questioned, round up any resources and even practice it using different dialects, so when it did happen they could respond in a more timely and believable fashion.

After it really isn't logical to assume any listening post they might encounter will be manned by drunk idiots who'll let them pass without much scrutiny.

Problem being, we don't really know how much time elapsed between Spock giving the order to violate Klingon space and their encounter with the Morska listening post.

 

[FormerLurker]

^And, of course, there's the distinct possibility that the Morska Listening Post was used to border crossings by less-than-stalwart dealers in contraband, and were expecting a payoff when they came back through. After all, the Enterprise crew as much as admitted they were going to "The Aliens' Graveyard" of Rura Penthe. The listening post crew may have felt they were going to other stops along the way.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

They clearly knew it wasn't a Klingon ship. Probably have had other subject races that aren't so good at Klingon come through before. (roughly 25 years before a Klingon was boasting that half the quadrant was learning to speak Klingonees).

Also one wonders how hard it is to pick out which Klingon dialect they are using with drunk. They did have to go though a bunch of different books to find the question the Klingons were using.

All right you've swung me to believe it plausible the Klingons manning the post were incompetent losers and let them through. Lord knows I've seen enough people like that in my own job to realize they're everywhere.

I still have a hard time accepting though that, as soon as he ordered the Enterprise to enter Klingon space, Spock didn't tell the crew to prepare for a scenario where they might be questioned, round up any resources and even practice it using different dialects, so when it did happen they could respond in a more timely and believable fashion.

After it really isn't logical to assume any listening post they might encounter will be manned by drunk idiots who'll let them pass without much scrutiny.

Problem being, we don't really know how much time elapsed between Spock giving the order to violate Klingon space and their encounter with the Morska listening post.

True but Spock also knew ahead of time, you could argue even as early as when he slapped the patch on Kirk as he and McCoy were leaving for Kronos One, that there was a strong chance he'd have to enter Klingon space to save them.
He would have known for certain after the verdict was read at the trial. Since he couldn't move until Kirk appeared on the sensors that still left a fair amount of lead time.

 

[BillJ]

True but Spock also knew ahead of time, you could argue even as early as when he slapped the patch on Kirk as he and McCoy were leaving for Kronos One, that there was a strong chance he'd have to enter Klingon space to save them.
He would have known for certain after the verdict was read at the trial. Since he couldn't move until Kirk appeared on the sensors that still left a fair amount of lead time.

But he seemed to be holding his cards close to his vest all the way until it was time to go to Rura Penthe. Meaning he didn't trust someone.

 

[dub]

I think it hasn't aged as well because in large part, the world grew up a bit in the meantime.

Dear planet earth: don't flatter yourself.

 

[Sybok Was Wrong]

At the end of the day, "Star Trek" is just a piece of entertainment, and the "Undiscovered Country" is just a movie. That's all.

A well produced, acted, professional movie. Like really, what more do you want? Why over analyze to the point of taking the joy out of a little film?

Like anything out of Hollywood, it is a product of its time. Some day, "Mad Max: Fury Road" & "Ant Man" will be dated too.

I thank Nicholas Meyer & Leonard Nimoy for making it happen & bringing me enjoyment.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah but you think that they would have been more prepared as to the likely questions they would be asked by a listening station instead of waiting for them to be asked and trying to find the answers in a panic.

Even if they couldn't use the universal translator to respond because it'd be recognized, you'd think they could use it off the comm system. So when they ask a question, Chekov could repeat it to the translator, get the answer and Uhura could repeat it to the Klingons.

Does the translator work that way? That's a good question but if you don't understand the language, just repeating what the translator says could be just as obvious.

The novelization was interesting in that the listening post was bored, and either drunk or hung over. That, and it isn't the most honorable of posts

I know I have nostalgia goggles when it comes to TUC but it is still one of my favorite films. It has probably one of the most interesting introspections on the part of both Spock and Kirk. I think it also reflects the wear and tear that a war, even a cold war, can take on others. The psychological impact of viewing Klingons as enemies for so long, and suddenly they are attempting to make peace, it begs the question of how our heroes would respond.

Are there plots holes? Yes, but not ones that I find so grievous that I can't rationalize away or fill in the gaps based upon personal knowledge or the novel.

That's a good point that the Klingons manning the post weren't the best and the brightest and might have been drinking as well.

Still you think long pauses before their questions were answered and the voice doing it in a very halting way using strange phrasing might at least raise an eyebrow even amongst the loser Klingons assigned to this duty.

Well, Starfleet intelligence may not have had eyes on every Klingon listening post, or Spock knew the one that smugglers used that would be more likely to let them slip by.

My larger problem is that Uhura and Chekov get roles as basically comedy bit parts in their scenes. That's more frustrating.

 

[Orac]

^ It's Uhura and Chekov you're talking about, they were never anything more than bit parts throughout Star Trek. Were you frustrated every time they appeared in an episode or movie?

 

[fireproof78]

^ It's Uhura and Chekov you're talking about, they were never anything more than bit parts throughout Star Trek. Were you frustrated every time they appeared in an episode or movie?

Just that they were treated as largely comic relief. Bit parts are fine, but TUC upped the comedy aspect a little bit more than I would have preferred.

Doesn't ruin the movie so much as I think about it and go "That could have been done better."

 

[Timo]

Of course, that's another "period piece" right there - our heroes are doing the Matthias Rust thing and waltzing right through a supposedly defended enemy border in defiance of the myth of invulnerability. Although the type of built-in incompetence chosen is different: the Soviets suffered from a rigid command structure where it was always too late to act when an individual defender finally got the necessary clearance, while it's more natural for the Klingons (starting with Kruge at least, prequel stuff notwithstanding) to just plain disregard their superiors and rules.

All of our heroes might have been quite aware of the Klingons being empty barrels, but Spock could have had the best access to latest Starfleet intel and rare access to Klingon reality thanks to his diplomatic efforts. This need not be a case of cunningly exploiting a rare spot of vulnerability, but merely of knowing that the emperor has no clothes (and has been dead for centuries!).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

What was it "We is condemning food" that the Klingons just looked at each other and decided to just wave this weirdo through?

 

[Timo]

Well, the clear implication is that the Klingons take that as a codeword for "prostitutes". Whether that's another Meyerism, that is, directly lifted from some real-world reference, I have no idea.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mudd]

20 years ago, this was my favourite Trek movie, now I seriously dislike it. Why has it aged so badly?

It's not a very good movie to begin with; you just have another two decades of life experience and exposure to popular entertainment to place it in context.