TUC - not aged well

[JWPlatt]

TUC has various problems which one might not notice when one is younger..

The other irritating bit is the constant flow of.tongue-in-cheek one-liners, most of which are far from funny. This was a problem with TFF as well. It's like a concious effort to inject some of the humour from TVH, but it's totally misplaced in a generally serious film.

I'm not too familiar with the background of the TOS movies, but was Harve Bennett less involved with the production of TFF and TUC? I wish someone had been there to rein in Meyer's excesses.

I wish I knew what those excesses were. When we make these generalized claims, can't we provide examples to support them? As far as generalized excesses, Peter Jackson is the master, but I never thought of Meyer as excessive.

Clearly it's a period piece...

Period piece? How so? It's not so clear to me.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

TUC has various problems which one might not notice when one is younger..

The other irritating bit is the constant flow of.tongue-in-cheek one-liners, most of which are far from funny. This was a problem with TFF as well. It's like a concious effort to inject some of the humour from TVH, but it's totally misplaced in a generally serious film.

I'm not too familiar with the background of the TOS movies, but was Harve Bennett less involved with the production of TFF and TUC? I wish someone had been there to rein in Meyer's excesses.

I wish I knew what those excesses were. When we make these generalized claims, can't we provide examples to support them? As far as generalized excesses, Peter Jackson is the master, but I never thought of Meyer as excessive.

Clearly it's a period piece...

Period piece? How so? It's not so clear to me.

Uh because what happened to the Klingon Empire pretty much mirrored exactly what happened to the Soviet Union a year before the film was made. Right down to the mention that the Klingons had overstretched themselves on military spending which is why they couldn't cope with the Praxis disaster. It's generally acknowledged that the USSR has also over stretched themselves in military spending and couldn't address other issues, like the Cherynoble disaster, as a result of funding.

Don't take my word for it. Nick Meyer himself has said on countless occasions the film was inspired by the fall of the Soviet Union with the Federation playing the role of the victorious United States who now needed to help their former enemies.

Seems like the definition of a period piece to me.

 

[Mage]

Parts of this film feel quite relevant now, I feel. Tensions between countries, thread of war. The racism. I mean, Azetbhur's line about human rights... It feels relevant today, where we see a lot of racism still in humor and political viewpoints, without us really noticing. Or even saying, it's fine, it's just a joke, I don't actually mean to be racist.... Doesn't matter, it's still racist.

So no, I don't think TUC is outdated. Is it an aged movie? Perhaps so, yes. But not outdated.

 

[JWPlatt]

TUC has various problems which one might not notice when one is younger..



I'm not too familiar with the background of the TOS movies, but was Harve Bennett less involved with the production of TFF and TUC? I wish someone had been there to rein in Meyer's excesses.

I wish I knew what those excesses were. When we make these generalized claims, can't we provide examples to support them? As far as generalized excesses, Peter Jackson is the master, but I never thought of Meyer as excessive.

Clearly it's a period piece...

...Uh because what happened to the Klingon Empire pretty much mirrored exactly what happened to the Soviet Union a year before the film was made. Right down to the mention that the Klingons had overstretched themselves on military spending which is why they couldn't cope with the Praxis disaster. It's generally acknowledged that the USSR has also over stretched themselves in military spending and couldn't address other issues, like the Cherynoble disaster, as a result of funding.

Don't take my word for it. Nick Meyer himself has said on countless occasions the film was inspired by the fall of the Soviet Union with the Federation playing the role of the victorious United States who now needed to help their former enemies.

That's limited thinking. Instead of referring you back to my very recent post that you should have seen, I'll quote it here:

...If anything, the racism in TUC (especially politically motivated) is more relevant today than in 1991.

Yes. And...

20 years ago, this was my favourite Trek movie, now I seriously dislike it. Why has it aged so badly?

It used the whole "Federation/Klingon Empire = USA/USSR" analogy from TOS as its basis, which was more of a '60's trope than a mid-'90's trope.

...while that is your mindset, and that of the writers of the film, having lived in that era, there is always some new era to apply to the same story. There are certainly some current events that fit it well. It will then age in the minds of today's youth as their own "trope" and the generation following this one will create a new trope to apply that makes the story seem prophetic when it was actually describing the endless cycle of human history or existence...

There are plenty of historical examples of an overextended military causing the fall of its own aggressive agenda, if not the country itself. Nazi Germany and Napoleon, for example. There are plenty more throughout all of recorded human history. If the film were shown to the people of those or more ancient times, without telling them the actual inspiration, they would apply their own contemporary history to it. We are creatures that find and fit patterns within our mind that conform only to what we know, and our memory is relatively short. As I mentioned, while it is true that the writers of TUC were indeed using the USSR as their template, it could just as well apply to other eras in the past or, prophetically, a cautionary tale to the future.

Seems like the definition of a period piece to me.

I think of a "Period Piece" as something that represents authentic attire, resources, environment, and behavior from past eras; historical fiction. From the past. e.g., North & South, Cold Mountain, Pride & Prejudice, The Duchess, Troy, Anna Karenina, Dances with Wolves, Legends of the Fall, The Young Victoria. I never think of a film set in the future, relative to its release, as a "Period Piece" because, by definition, it hasn't happened yet and has no literal basis in history. You base the term upon a metaphor for past events that are set in the future. That's not a "Period Piece" in my opinion because there's no way for it to be an authentic representation of what we know will be true to have happened.

 

[Timo]

Well, it does get closer than some of the above examples and their ilk, in terms of costuming, props, period phrases and customs etc.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[eyeresist]

I'm not too familiar with the background of the TOS movies, but was Harve Bennett less involved with the production of TFF and TUC? I wish someone had been there to rein in Meyer's excesses.

I wish I knew what those excesses were. When we make these generalized claims, can't we provide examples to support them? As far as generalized excesses, Peter Jackson is the master, but I never thought of Meyer as excessive.

The endless Shakespeare quotes, for one. Also, everyone suddenly becoming racists against the Klingons. And various silly things like Uhura's fumbling through the translation books, Kirk's "subtle" locator patch, the "clever" trap for Valeris, the existence of the ship's kitchen, and vaporising a pot but not the heap of mashed potatoes in it.

These things have been mentioned so often I didn't think I'd have to list them again.

 

[BillJ]

...the existence of the ship's kitchen...

Why would the existence of the ship's kitchen be an excess?

 

[eyeresist]

...the existence of the ship's kitchen...

Why would the existence of the ship's kitchen be an excess?

Because they use food replicators?

 

[Maurice]

...the existence of the ship's kitchen...

Why would the existence of the ship's kitchen be an excess?

Because they use food replicators?

Show me a food replicator in TOS. The food slots weren't replicators, otherwise they also replicated tribbles with your chicken sandwich and coffee.

 

[Sci]

20 years ago, this was my favourite Trek movie, now I seriously dislike it. Why has it aged so badly?

It used the whole "Federation/Klingon Empire = USA/USSR" analogy from TOS as its basis, which was more of a '60's trope than a mid-'90's trope.

That might have something to do with the fact that TUC was released in 1991 -- the early 90s, not the mid-90s.

Clearly it's a period piece...

Period piece? How so? It's not so clear to me.

Uh because what happened to the Klingon Empire pretty much mirrored exactly what happened to the Soviet Union a year before the film was made. Right down to the mention that the Klingons had overstretched themselves on military spending which is why they couldn't cope with the Praxis disaster. It's generally acknowledged that the USSR has also over stretched themselves in military spending and couldn't address other issues, like the Cherynoble disaster, as a result of funding.

Don't take my word for it. Nick Meyer himself has said on countless occasions the film was inspired by the fall of the Soviet Union with the Federation playing the role of the victorious United States who now needed to help their former enemies.

Seems like the definition of a period piece to me.

Um, not exactly. TUC was released on 6 December 1991; the Soviet Union did not fall until 25 December 1991. It was only while they were filming (April to September) that the August 1991 Soviet coup attempt against President Gorbachev occurred. It was only after that coup attempt that it became clear that the USSR was going to collapse; so at the time the film was written and being filmed, the fall of the Soviet Union was not on anybody's radar.

However, you are quite right in noting that TUC was inspired by the end of the Cold War; Leonard Nimoy remarked that he had gotten the ball rolling when he had suggested the idea of "the Wall comes down in outer space," and the Praxis/Chernobyl parallels are obvious.

I for one do not consider the fact that TUC is about the end of the Cold War to be a weakness, though. Complaining about that is like complaining about Planet of the Apes for being a metaphor about race relations, or complaining about Gojira/Godzilla being about the atomic bomb. It's the entire point of the film; it takes this longstanding element that's been a part of the TOS story from the very first season, the Federation/Klingon enmity, and it not only resolves that story in a way that is emotionally satisfying, but which gives our heroes a thematic reason to say goodbye in both personal growth and external triumph. It's emotionally satisfying to structure the story that way, and it's a completely natural outgrowth of the setting that was established in TOS and throughout the TOS films.

And, by the way, there really aren't that many films about the end of the Cold War, allegorically or literally. So that makes TUC pretty special, too.

 

[eyeresist]

Why would the existence of the ship's kitchen be an excess?

Because they use food replicators?

Show me a food replicator in TOS. The food slots weren't replicators, otherwise they also replicated tribbles with your chicken sandwich and coffee.

Technically they didn't have replicators - they had food synthesizers!

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Food_synthesizer

In The Trouble With Tribbles, Scott says "They're into the machinery, all right, and they're probably in all the other food processors too."
So the food was created by some sort of mechanism, even if it wasn't assembled from raw molecules.

 

[Sci]

Because they use food replicators?

Show me a food replicator in TOS. The food slots weren't replicators, otherwise they also replicated tribbles with your chicken sandwich and coffee.

Technically they didn't have replicators - they had food synthesizers!

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Food_synthesizer

In The Trouble With Tribbles, Scott says "They're into the machinery, all right, and they're probably in all the other food processors too."
So the food was created by some sort of mechanism, even if it wasn't assembled from raw molecules.

And in "Charlie X," the Enterprise had a galley, so there's no reason the Enterprise-A can't have one either.

 

[eyeresist]

Technically they didn't have replicators - they had food synthesizers!

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Food_synthesizer

In The Trouble With Tribbles, Scott says "They're into the machinery, all right, and they're probably in all the other food processors too."
So the food was created by some sort of mechanism, even if it wasn't assembled from raw molecules.

And in "Charlie X," the Enterprise had a galley, so there's no reason the Enterprise-A can't have one either.

That's a hell of an episode all round. Apart from Uhura celebrating her bizarre fantasies about Spock in song, apparently in the future Thanksgiving is celebrated by the entire Earth, not just the USA.

 

[Tosk]

Maybe Star Trek VI hasn't aged badly at all...maybe some viewers have.

 

[Disco]

Harsh but fair...

 

[BillJ]

That's a hell of an episode all round. Apart from Uhura celebrating her bizarre fantasies about Spock in song, apparently in the future Thanksgiving is celebrated by the entire Earth, not just the USA.

Or it could be celebrated by certain people who have that heritage while the entire crew can get better food. Would we have a problem with them celebrating Hanukkah even though everyone's obviously not Jewish?

The show was made in the United States for primarily American audiences, so obviously it will use modern touchstones that are recognizable to the audiences at the time.

 

[Sector 7]

I think it hasn't aged as well because in large part, the world grew up a bit in the meantime. Most of us look at that movie, see the obvious racism, and cringe because that's no longer part of the social norms we find acceptable.

Racism was not acceptable in 1991 either, but the films running point: that no matter how much time passes (for Kirk from TV to film) racism (creeping or overt) stills informs perceptions, no matter how rational the troubled person is in every other situation.

Adding to that, general "social norms" today accept racism more today than in 1991: from post 9/11 racism on a multi country scale which still runs strong, to the increasing level of general racism online (example: read the comments on any Yahoo news story dealing with African Americans in some political or social sense) and promoted by race-baiting stories (see: Fox News, talk radio, etc.), racism is not only the leading story almost every week, but its big business like never before.

It could only remain so strong because of a willing audience, the feeling that through tools such as social media, anonymity allows the power to be as outrageously racist without a single fear of exposure or consequence. As a result, the culture comes to expect it from every corner. If anything, the racism in TUC (especially politically motivated) is more relevant today than in 1991.

Parts of this film feel quite relevant now, I feel. Tensions between countries, thread of war. The racism. I mean, Azetbhur's line about human rights... It feels relevant today, where we see a lot of racism still in humor and political viewpoints, without us really noticing. Or even saying, it's fine, it's just a joke, I don't actually mean to be racist.... Doesn't matter, it's still racist.

So no, I don't think TUC is outdated. Is it an aged movie? Perhaps so, yes. But not outdated.

Maybe Star Trek VI hasn't aged badly at all...maybe some viewers have.

That's a hell of an episode all round. Apart from Uhura celebrating her bizarre fantasies about Spock in song, apparently in the future Thanksgiving is celebrated by the entire Earth, not just the USA.

Or it could be celebrated by certain people who have that heritage while the entire crew can get better food. Would we have a problem with them celebrating Hanukkah even though everyone's obviously not Jewish?

The show was made in the United States for primarily American audiences, so obviously it will use modern touchstones that are recognizable to the audiences at the time.

I had my response thought out... until I read the above posts. They are stated very well and I agree completely.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Chekov, Chief of Security in The Motion Picture, had to have Valeris tell him how phasers worked on starships in The Undiscovered Country.

 

[martok2112]

While it is still my favorite of the orginal six films, by a narrow margin over The Wrath of Khan, I will say that if anything, the effects look a bit shoddier. I was always disappointed with the photon torpedo effects (which had steadily declined since Star Trek II.....best effect is still in TMP). Sometimes the models look more like light up toys. And it does kinda look like it was shot for television.

The so-called "racism" thing in the movie? Didn't bother me one bit. It's a fictional alien race.

 

[Galileo7]

While it is still my favorite of the orginal six films, by a narrow margin over The Wrath of Khan, I will say that if anything, the effects look a bit shoddier. I was always disappointed with the photon torpedo effects (which had steadily declined since Star Trek II.....best effect is still in TMP). Sometimes the models look more like light up toys. And it does kinda look like it was shot for television.

The so-called "racism" thing in the movie? Didn't bother me one bit. It's a fictional alien race.

Agree. Also, I was disappointed that they did not replicate/rebuild the photon torpedo bay of the 1701-refit WOK on the 1701-A in TUC. I know it was a "new" 1701-A but it's torpedo bay did not look anything like the one in WOK.