TUC - not aged well

[Timo]

And it is rather odd that they got a pacist Vulcan who's one of Starfleet's best and brightest to go along with a plan to start a war.

Since when have Vulcans been pacifists? Spock specifically was the fiercest warhawk aboard Kirk's ship - say, the foremost proponent of firing at the enemy and starting a war in "Balance of Terror".

Surak himself, or Spock's dream version of him, expressed some sentiments that might be considered pacifist in "Savage Curtain". They need not be interpreted that way, though.

And it is rather odd that they got a pacist Vulcan who's one of Starfleet's best and brightest to go along with a plan to start a war.

Makes good sense on two levels.

1) The Feds have always wanted to be rid of the Klingon threat. Yet for the past century or so, the war has been a cold one. Clearly, nobody has believed in the "we can clean their chronometers" boasting - until now. What changed? The Klingons didn't get weaker yet - that would only happen if the Feds waited and hoped the Klingons would shift their resources from combat to environmentalism...

But if the Romulans promised to join the UFP side (or at least not join the Klingon one), the balance would be disturbed for the very first time. The least the Feds could do in such a case would be to allow the Romulans to listen in on negotiations of strategy.

2) Romulans have cloaking devices. Getting Kirk out of Khitomer (or the planet where the trial was held) would probably require a cloaking device. And the Klingons aren't donating any.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Paradise City]

It's more than environmental damage at play here. Praxis is their 'key energy production facility'. Their actual ability to wage war then and there seems to be impaired in the near term. I can well imagine them capable of perhaps one large scale offensive before their their incapacity to procure power for their ships and bases takes their toll. This seems to square with the very pessimistic attitudes of some of the Klingons.

And as for the Vulcans, they are more than capable of pursuing martial activities. Tuvok being a case in point.

With the Romulans, yeah, you could well see them as the evil genius behind this. Sure, the Feds might win a quick war but perhaps the Romulans would quietly step in and bankroll the remaining Klingon forces by proxy entangling the Federation in a draining quagmire.

 

[DWF]

And it is rather odd that they got a pacist Vulcan who's one of Starfleet's best and brightest to go along with a plan to start a war.

Since when have Vulcans been pacifists? Spock specifically was the fiercest warhawk aboard Kirk's ship - say, the foremost proponent of firing at the enemy and starting a war in "Balance of Terror".

Surak himself, or Spock's dream version of him, expressed some sentiments that might be considered pacifist in "Savage Curtain". They need not be interpreted that way, though.

And it is rather odd that they got a pacist Vulcan who's one of Starfleet's best and brightest to go along with a plan to start a war.

Makes good sense on two levels.

1) The Feds have always wanted to be rid of the Klingon threat. Yet for the past century or so, the war has been a cold one. Clearly, nobody has believed in the "we can clean their chronometers" boasting - until now. What changed? The Klingons didn't get weaker yet - that would only happen if the Feds waited and hoped the Klingons would shift their resources from combat to environmentalism...

But if the Romulans promised to join the UFP side (or at least not join the Klingon one), the balance would be disturbed for the very first time. The least the Feds could do in such a case would be to allow the Romulans to listen in on negotiations of strategy.

2) Romulans have cloaking devices. Getting Kirk out of Khitomer (or the planet where the trial was held) would probably require a cloaking device. And the Klingons aren't donating any.

Timo Saloniemi

There's no need to get rid of the Klingon threat, they stayed for the most on their side of the neutral zone. Spock is half human but even Spock would rather find away not to fight. Valeris' actions were not only treasoness but illogical. There's no way a war could save the Federation the way she claimed it would. A war would only weaken both the Federation and the Klingons, leaving them vulnerable to the Romulans.

 

[Paradise City]

And it is rather odd that they got a pacist Vulcan who's one of Starfleet's best and brightest to go along with a plan to start a war.

Since when have Vulcans been pacifists? Spock specifically was the fiercest warhawk aboard Kirk's ship - say, the foremost proponent of firing at the enemy and starting a war in "Balance of Terror".

Surak himself, or Spock's dream version of him, expressed some sentiments that might be considered pacifist in "Savage Curtain". They need not be interpreted that way, though.

And it is rather odd that they got a pacist Vulcan who's one of Starfleet's best and brightest to go along with a plan to start a war.

Makes good sense on two levels.

1) The Feds have always wanted to be rid of the Klingon threat. Yet for the past century or so, the war has been a cold one. Clearly, nobody has believed in the "we can clean their chronometers" boasting - until now. What changed? The Klingons didn't get weaker yet - that would only happen if the Feds waited and hoped the Klingons would shift their resources from combat to environmentalism...

But if the Romulans promised to join the UFP side (or at least not join the Klingon one), the balance would be disturbed for the very first time. The least the Feds could do in such a case would be to allow the Romulans to listen in on negotiations of strategy.

2) Romulans have cloaking devices. Getting Kirk out of Khitomer (or the planet where the trial was held) would probably require a cloaking device. And the Klingons aren't donating any.

Timo Saloniemi

There's no need to get rid of the Klingon threat, they stayed for the most on their side of the neutral zone. Spock is half human but even Spock would rather find away not to fight. Valeris' actions were not only treasoness but illogical. There's no way a war could save the Federation the way she claimed it would. A war would only weaken both the Federation and the Klingons, leaving them vulnerable to the Romulans.

They are an aggressive warlike species that the Federation can barely handle who generally think the Federation and its principles are contemptible. They seem to be the Federations primary adversary in this period and who says they stay on their side of the border?

Whilst her methods are obviously contemptible, the logic is actually with Valeris. The vision is with Spock and its great that he won the day. That's what's cool about this film.

 

[DWF]

Since when have Vulcans been pacifists? Spock specifically was the fiercest warhawk aboard Kirk's ship - say, the foremost proponent of firing at the enemy and starting a war in "Balance of Terror".

Surak himself, or Spock's dream version of him, expressed some sentiments that might be considered pacifist in "Savage Curtain". They need not be interpreted that way, though.



Makes good sense on two levels.

1) The Feds have always wanted to be rid of the Klingon threat. Yet for the past century or so, the war has been a cold one. Clearly, nobody has believed in the "we can clean their chronometers" boasting - until now. What changed? The Klingons didn't get weaker yet - that would only happen if the Feds waited and hoped the Klingons would shift their resources from combat to environmentalism...

But if the Romulans promised to join the UFP side (or at least not join the Klingon one), the balance would be disturbed for the very first time. The least the Feds could do in such a case would be to allow the Romulans to listen in on negotiations of strategy.

2) Romulans have cloaking devices. Getting Kirk out of Khitomer (or the planet where the trial was held) would probably require a cloaking device. And the Klingons aren't donating any.

Timo Saloniemi

There's no need to get rid of the Klingon threat, they stayed for the most on their side of the neutral zone. Spock is half human but even Spock would rather find away not to fight. Valeris' actions were not only treasoness but illogical. There's no way a war could save the Federation the way she claimed it would. A war would only weaken both the Federation and the Klingons, leaving them vulnerable to the Romulans.

They are an aggressive warlike species that the Federation can barely handle who generally think the Federation and its principles are contemptible. They seem to be the Federations primary adversary in this period and who says they stay on their side of the border?

Whilst her methods are obviously contemptible, the logic is actually with Valeris. The vision is with Spock and its great that he won the day. That's what's cool about this film.

While it's not in the movie it is in the novel that the Organians had disppeared, it was after that, that the Klingons tested the new cloaking device. Even Kruge mentions that their leaders were still talking peace with the Federation. And as long as there's another way and there was, starting a war is illogical.

 

[Paradise City]

There's no need to get rid of the Klingon threat, they stayed for the most on their side of the neutral zone. Spock is half human but even Spock would rather find away not to fight. Valeris' actions were not only treasoness but illogical. There's no way a war could save the Federation the way she claimed it would. A war would only weaken both the Federation and the Klingons, leaving them vulnerable to the Romulans.

They are an aggressive warlike species that the Federation can barely handle who generally think the Federation and its principles are contemptible. They seem to be the Federations primary adversary in this period and who says they stay on their side of the border?

Whilst her methods are obviously contemptible, the logic is actually with Valeris. The vision is with Spock and its great that he won the day. That's what's cool about this film.

While it's not in the movie it is in the novel that the Organians had disppeared, it was after that, that the Klingons tested the new cloaking device. Even Kruge mentions that their leaders were still talking peace with the Federation. And as long as there's another way and there was, starting a war is illogical.

In heavily militarised societies its not uncommon for the government to be enfeebled whilst the military goes off to do its own thing. Even the Federation is like that in this period. Whenever the Klingons appear with their cloaking device, they ain't clownin' around, they are usually all for shooting our friends out of the sky.

The logic simple. Best to negotiate a defeated enemy with its capacity to make war reduced, than to thrash out an uncertain peace with an unstable warlike power that has its war potential still intact.

 

[DWF]

They are an aggressive warlike species that the Federation can barely handle who generally think the Federation and its principles are contemptible. They seem to be the Federations primary adversary in this period and who says they stay on their side of the border?

Whilst her methods are obviously contemptible, the logic is actually with Valeris. The vision is with Spock and its great that he won the day. That's what's cool about this film.

While it's not in the movie it is in the novel that the Organians had disppeared, it was after that, that the Klingons tested the new cloaking device. Even Kruge mentions that their leaders were still talking peace with the Federation. And as long as there's another way and there was, starting a war is illogical.

In heavily militarised societies its not uncommon for the government to be enfeebled whilst the military goes off to do its own thing. Even the Federation is like that in this period. Whenever the Klingons appear with their cloaking device, they ain't clownin' around, they are usually all for shooting our friends out of the sky.

The logic simple. Best to negotiate a defeated enemy with its capacity to make war reduced, than to thrash out an uncertain peace with an unstable warlike power that has its war potential still intact.

That's a false generatization of the Federation, no sane person wants a war. There was the claim in TVH that there'd be no peace as long as Krik lives and no war, Klaa even backed down from attacking the Enterprise and even apologized at the behest of a superior officer. Only teh extremists on both sides wanted a war, even Krik was a afraid of future with no neutral zone.

The parallel with the fall of the USSR still works, but after frou seasons of TNG we know that the peace survived. The sacifice of the Enterprise C only made the bond stronger.

 

[Paradise City]

While it's not in the movie it is in the novel that the Organians had disppeared, it was after that, that the Klingons tested the new cloaking device. Even Kruge mentions that their leaders were still talking peace with the Federation. And as long as there's another way and there was, starting a war is illogical.

In heavily militarised societies its not uncommon for the government to be enfeebled whilst the military goes off to do its own thing. Even the Federation is like that in this period. Whenever the Klingons appear with their cloaking device, they ain't clownin' around, they are usually all for shooting our friends out of the sky.

The logic simple. Best to negotiate a defeated enemy with its capacity to make war reduced, than to thrash out an uncertain peace with an unstable warlike power that has its war potential still intact.

That's a false generatization of the Federation, no sane person wants a war. There was the claim in TVH that there'd be no peace as long as Krik lives and no war, Klaa even backed down from attacking the Enterprise and even apologized at the behest of a superior officer. Only teh extremists on both sides wanted a war, even Krik was a afraid of future with no neutral zone.

The parallel with the fall of the USSR still works, but after frou seasons of TNG we know that the peace survived. The sacifice of the Enterprise C only made the bond stronger.

I never said the Federation wants war. Reread my post again. In V Klaa only backs down because of Korrd who was won over by Sybok. Klaa does not look happy and persuaded.

The very pivot of Klingon society is battle. They are a warrior race. Many senior Klingons are itchin' to fight because they believe that its better to die on their feet than on their knees. That's depicted very clearly in this film.

 

[Timo]

There's no need to get rid of the Klingon threat, they stayed for the most on their side of the neutral zone.

The same was true of the Romulans in "Balance of Terror". Spock advocated a show of force nevertheless, despite (and because of!) the Romulans being likely to go to war.

Then again, that's only what we saw on screen. For all we know, Klingons of late had become much more aggressive. After all, that's how it always happened in TOS: "There has been a war brewing for the last X months/years/centuries" came out of the blue, and never mind that the very identity of the enemy did so as well!

But I doubt Cartwright and friends wanted a war as such. They just wanted to attack and defeat the Klingons, the same way Germany in WWI very much didn't want a war with France and for that reason preemptively invaded France.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DWF]

Yes they wanted a war, they used the Enterprise crew to try and help provide them with the war. Had Kirk not surrendered there would've been a war. Kirk in Into Darkness was in the same position, both time Kirk would've started a war because of his anger, hate and fear, but he saw beyond that.

 

[johnjm22]

Disagree with the OP. TUC is still one of the best Trek movies to this day. I also think it's the best looking Trek film ever made.

 

[OpenMaw]

, the foremost proponent of firing at the enemy and starting a war in "Balance of Terror".

Firing on to prevent a war was his logic. Spock's logic of course being, show them your teeth so they'll back off, otherwise you invite further aggression.

 

[STEPhon IT]

What was disappointing about the film was it depended heavily on the predictable murder mystery. No one in the audience would suspect or accept an original cast member to be one of the conspirators. The film missed a huge opportunity to explore the klingon world, and their society, and have Kirk and Bones discover something they didn't know about the Klingon culture.

Star Trek is more than just a murder mystery and since that was the original crew's final mission together it should've been epic.

I liked Nicholas Meyer's attempt to rekindle the Spock and protege element from ST:II, and I liked Valeris, but the mystery would've been effective if Kirstie Alley returned as Saavik.

I recently watched it on HD, and the film doesn't look very good, in particular the penal planet scene. That scene was rushed and not well thought out because the scope of the prison is not there.

I didn't care too much for Sulu not being on board the Enterprise; seems odd the plot is completely fueled by the supporting cast members and getting deserved screen time while Sulu is somewhere else.

Despite my critiques of the film, I still think it's better than ST: TMP, ST:III, ST:V, and those Gawd awful TNG films, and JJ Abrams Star Wars redressing of Star Trek.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

What was disappointing about the film was it depended heavily on the predictable murder mystery. No one in the audience would suspect or accept an original cast member to be one of the conspirators. The film missed a huge opportunity to explore the klingon world, and their society, and have Kirk and Bones discover something they didn't know about the Klingon culture.

Leonard Nimoy felt the same way. He always felt that Kirk should've come away from the story with a greater insight into the Klingon people. And I agree, the story does fall down a bit there.

Star Trek is more than just a murder mystery and since that was the original crew's final mission together it should've been epic.

I think there IS an epic scope to the story. It's of galactic import and spans Earth, Kronos, Rura Penthe, and Khitomer. They didn't always have the budget to properly depict all those places, but they certainly tried. I'd say it's more of an epic story than most of the TOS films.

I liked Nicholas Meyer's attempt to rekindle the Spock and protege element from ST:II, and I liked Valeris, but the mystery would've been effective if Kirstie Alley returned as Saavik.

Agreed. THAT would've been genuinely shocking, and the audience would've shared in the betrayal that Spock felt. The "...A lie? / An omission / An error/ A choice." refrain would've worked much better with Spock and Saavik, as it would've recalled the "You lied / I exaggerated." exchange from TWOK.

I didn't care too much for Sulu not being on board the Enterprise; seems odd the plot is completely fueled by the supporting cast members and getting deserved screen time while Sulu is somewhere else.

Yeah, it's odd that George Takei was so over-the-moon about his pretend promotion. He was able to contribute to the plot of STVI in a significant way, but it was odd to think he'd have much chance of sustaining it long-term. By plot necessity, most of the significant stuff has to involve the Enterprise.

But as a bonus thing for the final TOS film, it works well.

Despite my critiques of the film, I still think it's better than ST: TMP, ST:III, ST:V, and those Gawd awful TNG films, and JJ Abrams Star Wars redressing of Star Trek.

Agreed! I'd personally put it over STIV, as well. It's fun when you first watch it, but its comedy doesn't hold up well to repeat viewings, IMO. If I'm in the mood to watch a Star Trek film, STVI is one of the first ones I go for.

 

[Gorbs]

I still think it's aged well. And I agree with others on this forum who argue that none of the movies have aged well. For me, TUC still makes sense (and is one of my favorites).

 

[dswynne1]

Not counting the Abrams movies, NONE of the Trek films have aged well, from topic to special effects. To single out TUC is silly on the outset. Personally, my favorite movie is TMP for being more "futuristic" in setting than ST2 thru NEM, which I think it is the most "true" to GR's vision of the future.

 

[dswynne1]

Racism was not acceptable in 1991 either, but the films running point: that no matter how much time passes (for Kirk from TV to film) racism (creeping or overt) stills informs perceptions, no matter how rational the troubled person is in every other situation.

Adding to that, general "social norms" today accept racism more today than in 1991: from post 9/11 racism on a multi country scale which still runs strong, to the increasing level of general racism online (example: read the comments on any Yahoo news story dealing with African Americans in some political or social sense) and promoted by race-baiting stories (see: Fox News, talk radio, etc.), racism is not only the leading story almost every week, but its big business like never before.

SNIP!

If you want a race-baiting news outlet, why don't you include MSNBC, vis-a-vis Melissa Harris Perry, who is the biggest race baiter on that network?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

If you want a race-baiting news outlet, why don't you include MSNBC, vis-a-vis Melissa Harris Perry, who is the biggest race baiter on that network?

Sure, this is on topic.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Agreed! I'd personally put it over STIV, as well. It's fun when you first watch it, but its comedy doesn't hold up well to repeat viewings, IMO. If I'm in the mood to watch a Star Trek film, STVI is one of the first ones I go for.

I put The Voyage Home over VI because I thought the story's timeless; and it had a message which was cerebral for just movie goers and not exclusive to Star Trek fans. To me, VI has a lot of problems but based on the internal studio politics going on back in 1990; I'm surprised the movie was even made--with that budget.

VI is the one I revisit as well, but not because of the story but the different takes and aspect ratios I continue to discover.

 

[eyeresist]

Not counting the Abrams movies, NONE of the Trek films have aged well, from topic to special effects. To single out TUC is silly on the outset.

I think the TNG movies look better than the TOS movies. ILM's work on the so-called trilogy looks great, but overall the TNG movies are less grainy, and have brighter, more naturalistic colours.