TSFS plot hole...

[Jedi Marso]

Can't remember if this has been discussed before or not, but I just rewatched the movie today and this jumped out at me:

Was it even necessary for Kirk and co to steal the Enterprise?

I mean, they were on their way to Genesis before David and Saavik even found regenerated Spock.

As far as Kirk knew, all he needed to do was police up McCoy and head to Mt. Seleya on Vulcan, right? To the best of their knowledge, Spock's body was burned up on re-entry, so no reason to go back to Genesis on that score. There wasn't even a real need for secrecy: Sarek could have requested anything he wanted as ambassador, and off they go, either on a commercial transport, diplomatic courier, or a starfleet ship headed that way.

Right? No need to steal the ship and wreck careers. True, Spock and Saavik would have died or been taken by Kruge, and Spock's katra would have never gone through the re-fusion, but the whole Enterprise theft and flight to Genesis seems like a huge plot hole. From the perspective of the characters, it never should have happened.

 

[urbandefault]

Aa I remember, Sarek didn't initially know that McCoy carried Spock's katra. When he found out, he insisted that Kirk bring McCoy and Spock's body to Vulcan.

Or I could be totally wrong.

ETA: Nobody was going to give Kirk a ship to go to Genesis. McCoy tried to hire one on his own, remember?

"Genesis is planet forbidden!"

There was only one ship, and one group of people to fly her there.

 

[UssGlenn]

They reordered the scenes in editing, originally the Grissom finding that the tube soft landed opened the film, and Kirk's later log entry is modified accordingly. That said even in the original version there is no real reason to bring Spock's corpse back to Vulcan, they still don't find out he is alive until later.

Edit: well, Sarak does tell Kirk to "Bring them both to Vulcan" which from context sounds like McCoy and the Katra, but Kirk Luckily misunderstood him. And the Katra is telling McCoy to go to Genesis

 

[Doug Otte]

Can't remember if this has been discussed before or not, but I just rewatched the movie today and this jumped out at me:

Was it even necessary for Kirk and co to steal the Enterprise?

I mean, they were on their way to Genesis before David and Saavik even found regenerated Spock.

No, as Kirk's opening log entry states, the Enterprise was on its way back to spacedock for repairs.

As far as Kirk knew, all he needed to do was police up McCoy and head to Mt. Seleya on Vulcan, right? To the best of their knowledge, Spock's body was burned up on re-entry, so no reason to go back to Genesis on that score. There wasn't even a real need for secrecy: Sarek could have requested anything he wanted as ambassador, and off they go, either on a commercial transport, diplomatic courier, or a starfleet ship headed that way.

The admiral clearly stated that any travel to Genesis was forbidden. McCoy tried to hire a private ship, but he was overheard by SF Security. I doubt that person he was asking would have complied anyway.

Interesting idea about Sarek, but I doubt his clout would have worked in this case.

Right? No need to steal the ship and wreck careers. True, Spock and Saavik would have died or been taken by Kruge, and Spock's katra would have never gone through the re-fusion, but the whole Enterprise theft and flight to Genesis seems like a huge plot hole. From the perspective of the characters, it never should have happened.

You have a good point about going to Genesis at all. Although David and Saavik found Spock's regenerated body, they weren't able to communicate that back to SF. I never thought about this plot hole in all the numerous times I've seen the film over the decades!

 

[Jedi Marso]

No, as Kirk's opening log entry states, the Enterprise was on its way back to spacedock for repairs.

I'm not talking about the beginning of the movie, but the order in which later events happened. Sarek shows up, tells Kirk to take McCoy to Vulcan with Spock's katra. Kirk then proceeds to steal the ship and head for Genesis. Why? Because we don't see live Spock until AFTER the scene where they escape Spacedock and Excelsior.

The admiral clearly stated that any travel to Genesis was forbidden. McCoy tried to hire a private ship, but he was overheard by SF Security. I doubt that person he was asking would have complied anyway.

Interesting idea about Sarek, but I doubt his clout would have worked in this case.

McCoy trying to hire a ship to go to Genesis was another plot hole. When Kirk found him in Spock's quarters, he told him to 'climb the steps of Mt. Seleya.' Again, there was no logical reason to even want to return to Genesis. I wasn't talking about Sarek trying to get them access to Genesis- just facilitating a quick trip to Vulcan for Kirk and McCoy. Again, there was no need at all to steal anything, much less a starship.

The only mention of 'going back to Genesis' was made by Kirk when they first arrived at Spacedock. That was presumably to participate in the exploration of the Genesis planet, but it was NOT necessary (as far as Kirk knew) in the matter of getting Spock's katra to Vulcan.

You have a good point about going to Genesis at all. Although David and Saavik found Spock's regenerated body, they weren't able to communicate that back to SF. I never thought about this plot hole in all the numerous times I've seen the film over the decades!

Zactly.

 

[UssGlenn]

McCoy trying to hire a ship to go to Genesis was another plot hole. When Kirk found him in Spock's quarters, he told him to 'climb the steps of Mt. Seleya.' Again, there was no logical reason to even want to return to Genesis.

McCOY: (in Spock's voice) Jim, ...Help me. ...You left me on Genesis. ...Why did you do that? ...Help me.
KIRK: Bones, ...what the hell are you doing? Have you lost your mind!
McCOY: Help me, Jim. ...Take me home.
KIRK: Bones, we are. We are home.
McCOY: Then perhaps it's not too late. ...Climb the steps, Jim. ...Climb the steps of Mount Seleya.

It's not super spelled out but the Katra is telling Kirk here that it needs the physical body of Spock for...something. That coupled with McCoy trying to get there on his own, tells Kirk they need to go back to Genesis even if he doesn't know what he will do there. Presumably the Katra will tell them when they get there.

 

[Tosk]

Perhaps as Spock's body regenerated it started 'calling' to his katra. That's why McCoy isn't drawn to it early on, but is later.

 

[David cgc]

In the novelization, it's explained that both the body and the living carrier of the Katra need to be present for the Katra to be interred in an ark in the Hall of Ancient Thought on Mt. Selaya (and that while Spock's will specified burial in space, since he was unsure if he'd be able to move his Katra since he wasn't a full Vulcan, and he assumed if he was successful, his carrier would be able to override his wishes make sure he made it to Vulcan, body and soul).

Somehow, despite wondering about this for literal decades, and having access to the shooting script for about as long, it never occurred to me to actually check if this was from the movie or purely an invention of Vonda McIntyre to fix an incoherent story. It turns out, it was in the script, but was just edited out. Probably since it's ultimately irrelevant, and the action and its inevitable result sort of carry you along.

From the scene where McCoy is channeling Spock in his quarters right after they arrive at Earth:

THE VOICE
Jim... Help me... take me... up the steps... of Mount Seleya... through the hall of ancient thought...​

And extending the scene where the crew hijacks the Bird of Prey, right after Kirk tells Maltz:

KIRK
I lied.

At Kirk's gesture, Chekov leads Maltz out. Kirk turns back to his panel.

SULU
Estimating Vulcan at point one niner.

CAMERA MOVES IN to Kirk and Saavik.

KIRK
Saavik: message to Ambassador Sarek. Tell him we bring McCoy and a living Spock. Ask him to prepare for the Katra ritual.

Saavik raises an eyebrow.

SAAVIK
Yes, Admiral. But that may not be possible.

KIRK
(turning)
What? What are you saying?

SAAVIK
The Katra ritual is meant to deposit Spock's consciousness in the Hall of Ancient Thought - not in his body.

KIRK
But we have Spock alive! That's more than we bargained for!

SAAVIK
Or less. What you describe is called Fal Tor Pan - the refusion. It is very dangerous. The elders may not choose to attempt it.

KIRK
And if they don't? What will happen to Spock?

SAAVIK
He will remain always as he is.​

 

[Dukhat]

To the best of their knowledge, Spock's body was burned up on re-entry...

Here is the crux of the argument. Somehow, Sarek knew that Spock's body was still intact, as he states to Kirk that he read his report, asked him why Kirk left Spock on Genesis, and that Kirk must bring them both to Vulcan (McCoy and Spock's body.) Since Kirk does not question Sarek, the implication is that Kirk believed Spock's body was on the surface of the planet as well, and said as much in the report Sarek read. Perhaps the torpedo was programmed to soft-land the whole time, despite David acting as if he wasn't aware of that.

 

[UssGlenn]

Here is the crux of the argument. Somehow, Sarek knew that Spock's body was still intact, as he states to Kirk that he read his report, asked him why Kirk left Spock on Genesis, and that Kirk must bring them both to Vulcan (McCoy and Spock's body.) Since Kirk does not question Sarek, the implication is that Kirk believed Spock's body was on the surface of the planet as well, and said as much in the report Sarek read. Perhaps the torpedo was programmed to soft-land the whole time, despite David acting as if he wasn't aware of that.

Reediting woes. Originally Kirk finds out about the tube before returning to Spacedock, giving him time to add that note to his report.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Here is the crux of the argument. Somehow, Sarek knew that Spock's body was still intact, as he states to Kirk that he read his report, asked him why Kirk left Spock on Genesis, and that Kirk must bring them both to Vulcan (McCoy and Spock's body.) Since Kirk does not question Sarek, the implication is that Kirk believed Spock's body was on the surface of the planet as well, and said as much in the report Sarek read. Perhaps the torpedo was programmed to soft-land the whole time, despite David acting as if he wasn't aware of that.

This is pure conjecture based on the movie we got. However, I'll concede that this information was perhaps buried in an unused part of the script, or a deleted or re-ordered scene. Kirk does mention about the crew being 'on the verge of obsession' concerning Spock, which implies something unusual had happened.

 

[Ssosmcin]

This person hits on it well.

For example, to this day, I’ll read the occasional retro-review in which the writer wonders how Kirk and Sarek knew that Spock’s body was intact on the Genesis Planet when, at that point in the film, only the crew of the Grissom should have known that Spock’s coffin had soft-landed instead of burning up in the atmosphere. Well, in the screenplay, Scene One is the Grissom arriving at Genesis, locating Spock’s tube on the surface, and transmitting this news to Starfleet Command. In Scene Two, the battle-scarred Enterprise is heading back to Earth, with Kirk mentioning in his personal log entry that he feels uneasy. The main reason? “The news of Spock’s tube has shaken me,” he says. So clearly, Starfleet Command informed Kirk about the message from the Grissom.

But during the editing stage, it was decided to begin the film with the Enterprise. So Scene Two became Scene One, and the Grissom’s arrival at Genesis was moved to a later point. Kirk’s log entry was revised to reflect this change—in the finished film, the line is, “The death of Spock is like an open wound.”

As a result of the editing, the scene that introduces the Grissom and shows its discovery of Spock’s tube is immediately followed by Sarek’s first appearance, in which he shows up at Kirk’s apartment. It’s never specified in the film how much time passes between these two scenes. The implication is, not much. But since it’s clear that both Sarek and Kirk now know that Spock’s body is intact on Genesis, it’s safe to assume that enough time has passed that each of them was informed about it by Starfleet Command. But that’s the problem—it’s never made clear. So the folks in the audience have to assume, have to do more reasoning and more connecting of the dots than they should. It’s a bit of a distraction.

http://glenngreenbergsgrumblings.blogspot.com/2011/09/star-trek-through-fresh-eyes-part-seven.html

I remember the DC comics adaptation stuck closer to the original script, before the tinkering. Even the gril on the steps of Mount Selaya was included.

 

[Therin of Andor]

... since he was unsure if he'd be able to move his Katra since he wasn't a full Vulcan...

And yet, Spock successfully moves his katra into Nurse Chapel in "Return to Tomorrow", although we had not yet heard of the term "katra".

 

[Ssosmcin]

And yet, Spock successfully moves his katra into Nurse Chapel in "Return to Tomorrow", although we had not yet heard of the term "katra".

Well Spock was notoriously private and didn't give it a name. He was embarrassed about the whole thing.

He didn't even tell his best friends who his parents were until the last minute or his brother decades later.

It's totally in Spock's personality to hide that stuff.

 

[Doug Otte]

This person hits on it well.

For example, to this day, I’ll read the occasional retro-review in which the writer wonders how Kirk and Sarek knew that Spock’s body was intact on the Genesis Planet when, at that point in the film, only the crew of the Grissom should have known that Spock’s coffin had soft-landed instead of burning up in the atmosphere. Well, in the screenplay, Scene One is the Grissom arriving at Genesis, locating Spock’s tube on the surface, and transmitting this news to Starfleet Command. In Scene Two, the battle-scarred Enterprise is heading back to Earth, with Kirk mentioning in his personal log entry that he feels uneasy. The main reason? “The news of Spock’s tube has shaken me,” he says. So clearly, Starfleet Command informed Kirk about the message from the Grissom.

But during the editing stage, it was decided to begin the film with the Enterprise. So Scene Two became Scene One, and the Grissom’s arrival at Genesis was moved to a later point. Kirk’s log entry was revised to reflect this change—in the finished film, the line is, “The death of Spock is like an open wound.”

As a result of the editing, the scene that introduces the Grissom and shows its discovery of Spock’s tube is immediately followed by Sarek’s first appearance, in which he shows up at Kirk’s apartment. It’s never specified in the film how much time passes between these two scenes. The implication is, not much. But since it’s clear that both Sarek and Kirk now know that Spock’s body is intact on Genesis, it’s safe to assume that enough time has passed that each of them was informed about it by Starfleet Command. But that’s the problem—it’s never made clear. So the folks in the audience have to assume, have to do more reasoning and more connecting of the dots than they should. It’s a bit of a distraction.

http://glenngreenbergsgrumblings.blogspot.com/2011/09/star-trek-through-fresh-eyes-part-seven.html

I remember the DC comics adaptation stuck closer to the original script, before the tinkering. Even the gril on the steps of Mount Selaya was included.

Thanks for posting. But I must ask: what's a "gril"? Did you mean "grill" or "girl"? I don't understand either one in context. Thanks.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Thanks for posting. But I must ask: what's a "gril"? Did you mean "grill" or "girl"? I don't understand either one in context. Thanks.

They meant the little Vulcan girl, who is even in the end credits, Katherine Blum.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Yeah sorry. Typo. Girl. As @Therin of Andor says, she's in the end credits and is included in the comic book adaptation.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Did this girl have some significance other than as an extra?

 

[Ssosmcin]

Nah she just had a line of dialog I assume to show the Vulcan's giving support to Spock.

 

[SithHappens]

'there are always possibilities' 'and if Genesis is indeed life from death I must return to this place again'

pretty much answers it