Troi's Chair

[Will_Carter]

I just want to chime in and say, I never disliked Jellico. He was just kind of an ass. All he had to do was work with Riker, explain that they don't have time to adjust due to the Cardassian crunch. Once that's over, Picard can take command. Should Picard be lost and Jellico remain in command, they can adjust to new leadership then. Literally, most of the conflict between Jellico and the crew could have been fixed with one conversation with Riker, but then there'd be no drama for us to get mad about.

Exactly my point. Jelico could have smoothed things over with a bare minimal of effort... that he clearly didn't feel like showing.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Exactly my point. Jelico could have smoothed things over with a bare minimal of effort... that he clearly didn't feel like showing.

I think this is what of those "TV drama" things where there's a little artificial conflict to drive the plot. Captain Jellico was likely one of those people who's a great starship captain but sucks at social skills. "Get it done!"

 

[Will_Carter]

Captain Jellico was likely one of those people who's a great starship captain but sucks at social skills. "Get it done!"

Disclosure: This sort of behavior is how my stepdad acts when he thinks he can get away with it. I have hated the sort of behavior for that very reason my entire life.

I am not swayed by the argument of Jelico's competency.

It is telling all he told Troi to do was put on a proper uniform, which is one of his command shakeup choices I'll actively get behind as it allowed Troi to present in a more professional manner on the bridge and frankly? She looks better in uniform than a space onsie.

Jelico to me is a deeply insecure and insincere man trying to mask with bluster and shouting. He opposes views other than his own he fears that the other person may actually be right and he can't stand that idea.

That he was willing to let Troi stay on the bridge showed a rare amount of good sense, as he both needed her skills to read his opponents better, and to give a conduit to the rest of the crew other than his XO.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Disclosure: This sort of behavior is how my stepdad acts when he thinks he can get away with it. I have hated the sort of behavior for that very reason my entire life.

I am not swayed by the argument of Jelico's competency.

It is telling all he told Troi to do was put on a proper uniform, which is one of his command shakeup choices I'll actively get behind as it allowed Troi to present in a more professional manner on the bridge and frankly? She looks better in uniform than a space onsie.

Jelico to me is a deeply insecure and insincere man trying to mask with bluster and shouting. He opposes views other than his own he fears that the other person may actually be right and he can't stand that idea.

That he was willing to let Troi stay on the bridge showed a rare amount of good sense, as he both needed her skills to read his opponents better, and to give a conduit to the rest of the crew other than his XO.

My take on Jellico is that he's one of those "gives no shits" military / career oriented men. He's not there to make friends, he's there to do his job. When people complain about his command style, instead of listening, rolls his eyes and just doesn't care. I've met a lot of people like this in both job and social settings. Some people just don't care about being social, they just want to go to work, do the job, be left alone.

 

[Will_Carter]

My take on Jellico is that he's one of those "gives no shits" military / career oriented men. He's not there to make friends, he's there to do his job. When people complain about his command style, instead of listening, rolls his eyes and just doesn't care. I've met a lot of people like this in both job and social settings. Some people just don't care about being social, they just want to go to work, do the job, be left alone.

All well and good... til you have to live with someone like that.

I'm simply admitting bias against jelico and a lack of empathy or consideration based on results due to that lived experience.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Some people just don't care about being social, they just want to go to work, do the job, be left alone.

Which is fine if you're just a "worker", but something of an issue if you're a manager/leader, particularly of a large team that by definition needs to be able to work closely and smoothly together.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

All well and good... til you have to live with someone like that.

I'm simply admitting bias against jelico and a lack of empathy or consideration based on results due to that lived experience.

I can relate, I have had "give no shits" relatives.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Which is fine if you're just a "worker", but something of an issue if you're a manager/leader, particularly of a large team that by definition needs to be able to work closely and smoothly together.

Unfortunately, sometimes you have managers/leaders who just don't care.

 

[Roundabout]

"Chain of Command" happened to be on Pluto TV last night. I couldn't resist watching. Resistance was futile.

Anyway, what really got my attention on this rewatch was Jellico's treatment of Picard. Picard was a fellow captain, an equal not a subordinate, yet Jellico treated Picard just as shabbily.

Before Picard went off on his life and death mission, he and Jellico had a chat in the ready room. There were no exchange of pleasantries. Jellico wrote off Picard as a dead man walking and he said so right to Picard's face.

I felt that Jellico could have, at least, humored Picard by saying that he would give Riker a chance, as Picard wanted. But Jellico outright rejected Picard's wish, again to Picard's face.

And Jellico's line "the Enterprise is mine now", I'm sure that couldn't have eased Picard's mind. Why be a dick?

Jellico did, at least, tell Picard "here's hoping you beat the odds".

But then as Picard was leaving the room, Jellico held up a book that belonged to Picard, reminding Picard to take his stuff with him. Jellico made sure Picard knew who was in and who was out and who was in charge now.

I also got the impression it was Jellico's way of saying to Picard, "don't let the door hit you on your way out". You could tell Picard wasn't pleased, but he kept a stiff upper lip and walked out.

Picard isn't my favorite captain, but he deserved better than the crappy treatment he got from Jellico.

 

[evilchumlee]

I just want to chime in and say, I never disliked Jellico. He was just kind of an ass. All he had to do was work with Riker, explain that they don't have time to adjust due to the Cardassian crunch. Once that's over, Picard can take command. Should Picard be lost and Jellico remain in command, they can adjust to new leadership then. Literally, most of the conflict between Jellico and the crew could have been fixed with one conversation with Riker, but then there'd be no drama for us to get mad about.

That's the issue though. I don't actually dislike Jellico either... I dislike the people who try to defend Jellico as being a good Captain. He's a terrible Captain and an even worse leader.

He was astonishingly incompetent at actually leading his crew. All of the things he needed to implement could have been implemented, if he wasn't a power tripping asshole. Just as you say, even a small explanation would have pretty much solved the problem.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Anyway, what really got my attention on this rewatch was Jellico's treatment of Picard. Picard was a fellow captain, an equal not a subordinate, yet Jellico treated Picard just as shabbily.

Certainly not a sub-ordinate, if anything he's nominally Jellico's superior given that he's held a "first line" billet for several years, whereas Jellico has only just been promoted to that level.

 

[fireproof78]

My take on Jellico is that he's one of those "gives no shits" military / career oriented men. He's not there to make friends, he's there to do his job. When people complain about his command style, instead of listening, rolls his eyes and just doesn't care. I've met a lot of people like this in both job and social settings. Some people just don't care about being social, they just want to go to work, do the job, be left alone.

Indeed and his take was to mix results. Not saying he's a perfect captain or leader but that the crew responded to a change in an equally frustrating manner.

Jellico needed to improve the social and the crew needed to respond with professionalism.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Indeed and his take was to mix results. Not saying he's a perfect captain or leader but that the crew responded to a change in an equally frustrating manner.

Jellico needed to improve the social and the crew needed to respond with professionalism.

Jellico just needed to drop the stick.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

My take on Jellico is that he's one of those "gives no shits" military / career oriented men. He's not there to make friends, he's there to do his job.

Exactly. So why should Jellico even CARE about "smoothing things over"? If being blunt and outspoken gets him results, that's what he's gonna do.

As for the rest of the crew, the only reason their response to him was "frustrating" was simply because he's not Picard. I find it likely that if you asked Jellico's regular crewmates on the Cairo what he was like as a captain, you'd get an entirely different result. The Ent-D crew bitched and moaned because Jellico wasn't Picard.

Certainly not a sub-ordinate, if anything he's nominally Jellico's superior given that he's held a "first line" billet for several years, whereas Jellico has only just been promoted to that level.

Oh? What makes you think that?

We have no idea how long Jellico had been a captain. All we know is that he was captain of the Cairo before he came to the Enterprise. That's literally it. Jellico's time in grade, is a complete unknown. For all we know he was a Captain for a decade or more before Picard was.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Oh? What makes you think that?

On screen evidence.

We have no idea how long Jellico had been a captain.

We don't need to.

All we know is that he was captain of the Cairo before he came to the Enterprise. That's literally it.

Which is all we need to know.

The Cairo is a "second string" smaller, older and probably at least marginally less capable vessel.

Jellico's time in grade, is a complete unknown. For all we know he was a Captain for a decade or more before Picard was.

Yes, but as the CO of a less capable vessel then he is implicitly (and possibly explicitly depend on the thoughts on Janeway's "Article 14, Regulation 191" from Equinox) junior to Picard.

Certainly, there's no evidence to support Jellico being Picard's superior.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You can't assume the Cairo is a "less capable" vessel just because it's Excelsior class.

Hell, not only is it one of the longest-lived and most useful classes in Starfleet history, there have been plenty of Admirals who have used Excelsiors as their own personal flagships, and nobody'd call THEM "less capable", would they?

 

[Will_Carter]

You can't assume the Cairo is a "less capable" vessel just because it's Excelsior class.

OTOH Jelico is talking to the captain of the fleet's flagship as if he were a junior officer.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

You can't assume the Cairo is a "less capable" vessel just because it's Excelsior class.

Why not?

If the Ambassador and Galaxy-classes weren't improvements on the Excelsior they wouldn't have built them in the first place.

And if the Cairo was just as capable or better than the Enterprise (which Jellico certainly acted like it was) then why not just use the Cairo instead?

Simple, because the Enterprise is a bigger, better more prestige vessel... which requires that Picard is most likely Jellico's peer and is certainly not the subordinate that Jellico acted like he was.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Perhaps Jellico simply isn't interested in how large or prestigious his SHIP is, and prefers to let his actions and career speak for themselves?

As a senior captain, Jellico surely has his pick of whatever ship he wants. An officer of his stature can afford to choose a smaller ship. He doesn't have to overcompensate.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

As a senior captain, Jellico surely has his pick of whatever ship he wants. An officer of his stature can afford to choose a smaller ship. He doesn't have to overcompensate.

So, what you're saying is that Jellico was the "senior captain" (despite zero evidence) to Picard who merely chose to a "lesser assignment" because he "doesn't need to overcompensate" (despite us literally being told and shown that he's a tremendously insecure individual to spends the entire two-parter overcompensating that crazy).

But I suppose according to you Picard is the weak, insecure and incompent one?