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Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do

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pookha said:
back to harbinger for a moment.
just how much planning goes into not wearing pjammas.
i easily see it as a spur of the moment impulsive thing myself.
It isn't a question of "planning" not to wear PJs. It's that all of her all of her behavior in this episode point directly to deliberation. She knew damn well she was in control of that entire encounter and to pretend -- however transparently -- that it was just a dalliance was appalling.

If Trip had pulled that, everybody would have said he was a cad. T'Pol doesn't get a pass from me because it "scared her." :rolleyes:
 
the fic that takes into account the background of the princess and perfect mate is stub and joes bang the drum .
though i also like the cursor's the other woman take on the episode.
 
JiNX-01 said:
It isn't a question of "planning" not to wear PJs. It's that all of her all of her behavior in this episode point directly to deliberation. She knew damn well she was in control of that entire encounter and to pretend -- however transparently -- that it was just a dalliance was appalling.

If Trip had pulled that, everybody would have said he was a cad. T'Pol doesn't get a pass from me because it "scared her." :rolleyes:
That's exactly my problem with the whole thing too, and that double standard has been pointed out before, and ignored...
 
pookha said:
considering jon invited trip into the post movie get together i wondered if he invited tpol to try and attempt peace between the two.
and because he had been on her for awhile to mingle more with the crew.. all the way back to catwalk.
Yes, I think this is a nice Big Three scenario. Archer depends on them both, and he knows they get on each other's nerves sometimes. :lol:

Which your pictures illustrate very well, Pensive.
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Trip looks back AGAIN, still disgusted/incredulous at the Vulcan's suggestion

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Archer looks at T'Pol (likely going about her calibration business) and realizes it's her

JiNX-01 said:
It isn't a question of "planning" not to wear PJs. It's that all of her all of her behavior in this episode point directly to deliberation.
"All" is quite a sweeping statement. I'm not sure T'Pol planned on getting cold-cocked during the sparring session, or hurting Amanda during their corrective neuropressure meeting. In her quarters with Trip, I don't think it would have been possible for her to plan out every step of her alleged seduction, down to everything she said, since she was responding to what Trip said much of the time.

My point is, T'Pol seems to have been reacting (emotionally) to events as much as acting on them.

She knew damn well she was in control of that entire encounter
"Entire" is stating it broadly, too. We can assume that T'Pol knew Trip was coming to see her for neuropressure, and likely she was prepared to make some kind of definitive statement, whether it be a kiss or something more. She sparred verbally with him until she confirmed that he had feelings for her. Then she acted. The scene ended there, so we can only speculate what was planned, or spontaneous, after that. Somehow I don't think that Trip laid there like a wet rag, with T'Pol in total control...I'm assuming he was an active participant. :p

and to pretend -- however transparently -- that it was just a dalliance was appalling.
Of course it would be out of character for T'Pol. That may be why some viewers see the scene differently.

pookha said:
it is also interesting to reflect tpol coming from a society that not only is emotionally controlled but also were mates are selected for them isnt prepared for dating ect..

someone from that type of society can have very different reactions from say normal american society.
add in tpol that the trell was unleashing a bit of the primal vulcan which is demanding claim your mate..
no wonder she felt awkard the next morning.
and considering how they tease each other i wonder if that is what she was trying to do with that line only to see it blow up and she felt even more awkard.
This is along the lines of what I was thinking...T'Pol, being Vulcan, is simply not prepared for a relationship, much less an emotional relationship with a human. (Are there entries in the Vulcan database for this? Are there classes at the Vulcan Academy?) And her behavior the morning after--the subtext beneath the spoken dialogue, the hiding behind the tea mug, the exaggerated calm--seems to back that up, IMHO. Later, in E2, there is more corroborating evidence--T'Pol's discomfort in her scenes with Trip when they talk about their encounter, and T'Pol's scene with old T'Pol, who states plainly how "powerful" and "frightening" were her feelings for Trip.

pookha, in an earlier post, put down definitions of "exploration" (the word T'Pol used) and "experiment" (the word Trip mistakenly thought she meant), which mean very different things. That was interesting.

If Trip had pulled that, everybody would have said he was a cad.
If Trip, a veteran of several relationsips, had (exaggerating for the purposes of making a point) calculatingly seduced T'Pol, an emotional innocent, perhaps in love for the first time in her life--maybe a virgin too--then acted the next morning as if he had done it to take Vulcan sex for a test drive, of course that would make him a cad! But this would be as much OOC for Trip as the "dalliance" scenario is for T'Pol, IMHO. Also, it doesn't quite work for me to simply reverse their roles, because that upends the circumstances of the morning after as well. They're completely different people with different pasts, different cultures, different ways of handling emotion...
 
The morning after, after Trip indicates they should talk and wants T'Pol to go first.

T'Pol: I suppose I should thank you.
Trip: No need to thank me.
T'PoL: For facilitating my exploration of human sexuality.
Trip: I'm not sure I follow.
T'Pol: It's one of the many aspects of your species that I've been meaning to explore since I left the High Command.


First thing I got to say about this is that is cold. It means that having sex with a human is something that she has been thinking about doing and Trip just happened to be handy that night and obliged. Way hurtful for Trip. This scence actually made me feel bad the first time I watched it.

But I have some questions.

Does this sound like something a virgin would say? I mean, she would be saying "Although I have not explored Vulcan sexuality, I am interested in exploring human sexuality." That seems strange to me.

Second, she says she has only started thinking about it since she left the High Command. How long has that been? Since they left for the Expanse. Someone knows the chronology better than I do, but I'm thinking maybe about six months. Maybe nine? Does it make any sense that she could have this thought independently of her relationship with Trip. Who else is she close to? Reed, Hayes, or Travis? Archer? None of those would seem a likely candidate. How would she "seduce" them? Not a plausible scenario. Why didn't she have the desire to explore human sexuality before leaving the High Command? That's what did it? You leave the High Command and all of a sudden you want to explore human sexuality?

I guess the point I'm making (and I'm not really sure) is that what she is saying is SO not what's really happening.

But it was cold and hurtful for Trip. I had been really happy with the TNT in this episode. but that ending really bummed me out.
 
T'Pol: I suppose I should thank you.
Trip: No need to thank me.
T'PoL: For facilitating my exploration of human sexuality.
Trip: I'm not sure I follow.
T'Pol: It's one of the many aspects of your species that I've been meaning to explore since I left the High Command.
or it sounds like a continuation of the banter from the night before.
that she expected trip to play back.
maybe at the end he understood this.

one wonders if she has been watching old movies from the 30s and 40s were people hid their feelings hehind crazy teasing banter.
perhaps tpol didnt want to let on just how inexperienced she was.
 
I think you're reaching. The night before was banter about admitting attraction to each other. The morning after she was trying to act like there was nothing to it.
 
I think I'm going to have to agree with Captain X. I remember being very disappointed with T'Pol during the morning after conversation.

Although I can see the other side also. In hindsight, after what old T'Pol said about the emotions that Trip stirred in her.

I guess it's hard to know what the writers intended for that scene.
 
I think they intended for it to be cute, which is why T'Pol was acting so coy and why Trip didn't walk off after the "exploration" bit.
 
Captain X said:
I think they intended for it to be cute, which is why T'Pol was acting so coy and why Trip didn't walk off after the "exploration" bit.
I think you might be right about the writers trying to be cute, but as usual, it falls flat -- for me anyway -- because this relationship has been building for quite a while and to have T'Pol behave as she did to having a rival for Trip's attention and then drop the "sexperiement" line on him -- if she's having trouble dealing with her emotions, what does she think she's doing to his? -- was just stupid.

If they wanted to show her having a reaction to emotions, how about having her struggle with her jealousy? I so wish they had taken T'Pol's character seriously instead of treating her like a trampy sex kitten.
 
I know this is a little belated for favorite fanfic stories but I really like Van Diver's Interlude & Fugue Trip & T'Pol are competeing against each other it's a really fun story I was laughing hard at Trip & T'Pol trying to beat each other during the basketball game.Also about Harbinger when it comes to the Morning after scene I think she was afraid of the changes in their relation ship and was backpeddaling she sure seemed to want to hide how she felt about what happened and how affected it Her. I wish they had in the script how Trip really felt about T'Pol's lines about Exploration of human relationships and Trip thought it was an experiment.
 
I'll take up boushh's suggestion as well and bring up a favorite T/T moment of mine. It's an entire act, in fact--the last act of Strange New World,, when T'Pol and Trip both have phase pistols pointed at each other after being exposed to the spores.

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Trip is losing it, but even though T'Pol looks calm, she's just barely holding herself together as well.

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The tension and suspense were very effective for me because the crew still doesn't know each other very well, and we don't know if Trip is going to kill T'Pol, and Archer, stuck on the ship listening, doesn't quite know for sure if T'Pol isn't going to kill Trip.

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It all works out in the end--T'Pol "talks" to the rock people, Archer gets Trip to lower his weapon, and T'Pol stuns him.

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Great performances, and T/T take a step forward. :)
 
I think my favorite scene is still the scene toward the end of Countdown when T'Pol actually calls him "Trip" and he promises to be "all ears" for her. I really wished we could have seen that realized. :(
 
Captain X said:
I think my favorite scene is still the scene toward the end of Countdown when T'Pol actually calls him "Trip" and he promises to be "all ears" for her.
That'a a wonderful scene.

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T'Pol is being very pissy. Trip has his fill and heads for engineering--

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T'Pol: "Commander...Trip..."

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Trip stops in the doorway. (His reaction is priceless.)

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With great difficulty, T'Pol admits to being "slightly emotional" and apologizes.

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Trip: "Forget about it." (Awww. :) )

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T'Pol says it will be difficult to regain her control, especially on her own.

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Trip comes back in and makes clear to her that she's not alone. "When this is all over, if you want to talk, I'm all ears."

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And Trip flashes that sweet smile...

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And T'Pol is reassured. (And this is such a beautiful shot of her.)

I really wished we could have seen that realized. :(
I would love to have seen that, too. I wonder what scenario TPTB would have chosen. It seems that it would likely have taken place post-Zero Hour, pre-Home, before the T'Plot Device hit the fan and Trip's ears became noticeably scarcer. If Home had been a 2-parter, perhaps...but cancellation was right around the corner, and the 4th season was mostly about squarshing 4 years of stories into one. Ah well.

The silver lining is, since The Talk was never shown on the series, we can speculate on any and every possible scenario. I've ended up doing four different versions in four stories. :lol:
 
I can't tell you how much I wanted that talk. Instead we got the TNT soap opera.

Imagine how the entire 4th series would have been improved with a TNT subplot showing the development of their relationship, including a point where T'Pol sees the logic in their relationship. I think it would have made the whole 4th season better.

Also, it's one of those things that a prequel is supposed to be about. Not just the formation of the Federation of Planets, but the development of relations between Vulcans and Humans so that Spock is possible.

It was good in (the espisode before TATV - can't remember right now) when T'Pol says how important Elizabeth is. And she was, cause it sets the stage for the future, which is the Star Trek universe of TOS, TNG, etc.

Wish we could have had more TNT. They were important.


Thanks again to writers like

HopefulRomantic who have given us some things we didn't see on screen.
 
Yes, I like many of the fan fiction choices already mentioned. And I’ll throw in a few others, like Shouldknowbetter’s “We’ll Always Have Enterprise,” which has a Casablanca-like feel to it. (And that one has two follow-ups – “Ceti Alpha V” and “Daybreak.”) And a couple more which I think (and hope) are still works-in-progress -- Eratta’s “To Boldly Go Once Again,” and Quills’ “2084.”


Pensive, nice “Horizon” caps. I had forgotten that little look Archer gives after Trip leaves….


unchienne said:
Btw...what episode did you first notice an attraction between these two? While they always looked good together, I think for me it had to be the continuous ribbing that started in "Unexpected" and reared its head in subsequent eps.
Hmm…interesting question. I noticed a certain “intensity” in their interactions during the Broken Bow pilot and thought they seemed to play off each other well, but I wasn’t really thinking about potential pairings at that point. “Strange New World” (especially the last scene between them when they discuss challenging preconceptions) was really the first episode that made me think the writers were potentially setting up a romantic pairing, and “Breaking the Ice” sort of reinforced that view, although they also seemed to be testing other potential pairings as the season went on.



boushh said:
Hhmmm, I always thought that they may have had an idea of the Trellium arc earlier in the season but didn't want to tip their hand too early... perhaps even only certain people may have knonw it was going to play out in that direction. When thinking of "Similitude" one wonders if Manny even knew the direction they were going to go in at that point since he was a newbie... It's possible that the producers and director and/or JB knew, hence the slightly more emotional moments T'Pol has in that episode... because this is post "Impulse" and if one looks at things the way ttb posts below, she may have residual TD in her system or was already messing around with it.
I guess it’s possible B&B had the idea earlier in the season or perhaps they planned for T’Pol to be affected somehow by the trellium but didn’t come up with the specific addiction angle until later. I don’t think I’ve ever seen any definitive comments on when they actually developed that storyline. And I wasn’t following ENT online when those eps first aired, so what I have to go on is mainly the interviews available from that timeframe. Based on those, it seems there really wasn’t mention of the trellium until later in the season – after episodes like “Similitude” and “Harbinger” were already filmed. And I had the impression that the actors (or perhaps CT) didn’t have much advance knowledge about the storyline either. For example, CT indicated that he and JB sat down before filming “Harbinger” and talked about how they could play the scene(s) and try to stay true to their characters. (He said they actually filmed the morning after scene first.) It just didn’t sound like they had much of an inkling as to what was ahead, or it seems to me they might’ve played some of those scenes differently. But like I said, I don’t recall anything definitive about the timing.

If B&B really did have an idea of where the storyline was heading, though, it seems rather shortsighted that more indications weren’t included in the eps leading up to “Damage.” I think a storyline like that one, which had such significant negative implications for a main character, needed to be developed carefully and with the motivations really fleshed out.


HopefulRomantic said:
"Entire" is stating it broadly, too. We can assume that T'Pol knew Trip was coming to see her for neuropressure, and likely she was prepared to make some kind of definitive statement, whether it be a kiss or something more. She sparred verbally with him until she confirmed that he had feelings for her. Then she acted. The scene ended there, so we can only speculate what was planned, or spontaneous, after that.
Yes, that’s sort of how I viewed the scene. It seemed T’Pol was at a point when she wanted some type of clarity re: Trip’s feelings for her and where she stood relative to Amanda. But I hesitate to think she had planned every move out deliberately and carefully… she couldn’t be sure how Trip would react. And initially, T’Pol was acting aloof and reserved, and Trip was the one who actually brought up the jealousy topic – with T’Pol reacting once he essentially admitted his feelings. Re: the lack of pajamas, I’ve wondered if that was really supposed to be an indication of premeditation (or being prepared just in case) on T’Pol’s part, or if it was simply a practical filming element – easier to remove a single item (robe) instead of a two-piece pajama set.



Captain X said:
I think they intended for it to be cute, which is why T'Pol was acting so coy and why Trip didn't walk off after the "exploration" bit.
Yes, I also think it was intended to be cute and end on a lighter tone, and with the implication that there was something more going on beyond the words that were actually spoken. (Wasn’t there a script note that indicated neither of them was sure what had happened between them wouldn’t happen again?) I think the ambiguity at the end gave the writers some flexibility re: what direction to take the relationship. To me, though, it seemed like a missed opportunity to either move the relationship forward or set up the storyline to come (assuming they knew where things were headed at that point).


Lovely caps from “Strange New World” and “Countdown,” HR – two of my favorites.


And JohnV, I think this is the scene you’re referring to from “Terra Prime” – the one where Trip and T’Pol grieve and seek comfort together. Very moving….


T’Pol grieves while holding the IDIC pendant.
TPLS_4web.jpg


Trip says the delegates want to attend the service for Elizabeth.
TPLS2_4web.jpg



T’Pol replies “She was important.”
TPLS4_4web.jpg



Trip goes on to say that he spoke with Phlox and there was a flaw in the technique Paxton’s doctors used for the cloning process.
TPLS5_4web.jpg



T’Pol looks at Trip and he continues to explain that
TPLS6_4web.jpg


There's no medical reason Human DNA and Vulcan DNA can't combine. "So, if a Vulcan and a Human ever decided to have a child... it’d probably be ok."
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:(
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And Trip says "That’s sort of comforting."
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T’Pol seems to struggle with the implications of this new information then
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Reaches out to grasp Trip’s hand as they clutch the IDIC pendant between them.
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What a lovely image and poignant scene.
 
Tothebridge I really find it interesting baout the mention that Connor & Jolene talked about filming harbinger and being true to their characters . It makes sense the way you describe Harbinger and the lighter tone they took with the morning after scene. I also just wanted to say it seems there was more going on than just light bantering & teasing in that scene. Also Ttb those are wonderful screen caps.I always enjoy reading your comments and your insight into things with TnT I've haven't noticed before. :)
 
*rushes in, out of breath* I didn't forget about the meditation plot bunny, I just wanted to do some research first. When the timeframe of early s3 was suggested, I finished off s2 and started watching 3 so I could 'get to know everyone a little better', if you catch m'drift.

Luckily s3 happens to be really addictive and fast-paced (especially when you watch it all in less than 6 days!) so I got through it quickly. So much development between these two in one season, it practically SCREAMS "write fic about me!"

I'll try to make my first endeavor a vignette or something close to it; I don't want my sudden grand vision of future fics to distract me from what I promised y'all when I first signed up for duty hehehe :)

*leaves thread (satisfied with status report), forgets padd with plot bunny data, runs back in, offers sheepish sideways smirk, collects padd, exits a second time*
 
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