Trip & T'Pol: The Good That They Do
- Thread starter Captain X
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I liked Harbinger. Like I said back in May, the last time this came up, I don't consider it a guilty pleasure, but simply a pleasure. 
And sure, Trip was hurt, and at first he backpedaled too, trying to salvage his dignity ("We should probably forget it ever happened"). What I really liked about the scene, though, was that it didn't end on this sour, awkward note, with T'Pol successfully in denial and Trip's nose bent out of joint. The subtext comes into play again, with Trip saying, "Doesn't mean we can't keep doing the neuropressure, though." He's not going to slink away to sulk or mope. He's giving her notice that he's not going anywhere. The playing field has been leveled again, and this is no one-night stand, not by a long shot. (Just my .02. )
It's not made clear in this scene, but it's possible that Trip senses that T'Pol is not ready to move forward. So he backs off, a little--not enough to make her comfortable enough to "forget it ever happened"
but enough not to chase her away.
Agreed. One of the strengths of the T/T scenes, in my opinion, is the way subtext was used to reveal far more than was being said.
That's the way I read it, too--even before I saw E2, and T'Pol's talk with old T'Pol lined up with my take on the scene. IMHO, T'Pol got in over her head--she was frightened by the powerful emotions she was feeling for Trip. The morning after, she was backpedaling like crazy, attempting to downplay the previous night as an "exploration"--anything but the next step forward in a full-fledged romantic relationship, for which she was not ready at all.
And sure, Trip was hurt, and at first he backpedaled too, trying to salvage his dignity ("We should probably forget it ever happened"). What I really liked about the scene, though, was that it didn't end on this sour, awkward note, with T'Pol successfully in denial and Trip's nose bent out of joint. The subtext comes into play again, with Trip saying, "Doesn't mean we can't keep doing the neuropressure, though." He's not going to slink away to sulk or mope. He's giving her notice that he's not going anywhere. The playing field has been leveled again, and this is no one-night stand, not by a long shot. (Just my .02.
)It's not made clear in this scene, but it's possible that Trip senses that T'Pol is not ready to move forward. So he backs off, a little--not enough to make her comfortable enough to "forget it ever happened"
but enough not to chase her away.
Captain X
Rear Admiral
Why would you ever want to forget that something like that happened though? Plus, she's the one that initiated it. To me, that bit is the worst part, because when it comes down to it, she did use him. She acted to keep him away from someone else, and then treated him like dirt. Trip sticking around and telling her that the neuropressure need not stop was actually kinda childish - like he figured if they kept at that, maybe he'd get laid again. Not exactly dignified in my view.
I was really ticked off at T'Pol the morning after:
Her reaction upon being told Trip was VNP'ing with another female; she's distracted seeing Trip and Amanada during training and gets clobbered; her conversation with Trip about Cole; the "woman to woman chat" about Trip she has with Cole and the "neck pinch" she gives her; the bantering with Trip, the kiss and dropping the robe (no pajamas tonight!).
She made the decision -- God knows, she'd had plenty of time to think about it after Sim told her how Trip felt -- and she is clearly in control.
So, for her to behave the next morning like a scared adolescent -- as if it "just happened" and she couldn't deal with it -- that was just another bit of bad writing. She's in her 60s for crying out loud! Somebody, PLEASE!, let her be an adult.
As for Trip, he enjoys her company -- and he's not the kind of man who uses people -- so I think he wanted to keep doing the VNP because it gives him a reason to keep seeing T'Pol and working past her (unjustified, IMO) discomfort.
Suffice it to say I completely disagree with the last couple of posts. 
I really don't feel like she set out to use him, which to me means that she didn't. If that were the case, then I would feel it was out of character and messed up as well. And I don't think it's strange that she would be so affected by what had happened between them that she was frightened enough to back off, at least for the moment. She did an impulsive thing, acted on her feelings, which she doesn't make a habit of doing since it's a no no, and it frightened her. It doesn't make her juvenile, or immature or a bitch, IMHO. It makes her flawed, inexperienced and influenced by another substance which is allowing her to loosen control of her emotions, which she is again not used to at least to that extent. And so what if she's 60 something? Some people are late bloomers. She was engaged to be married, so what other experience would she have had in these matters, especially if one considers this more than just sex... unless she had a fling or some love story we aren't aware of... but if she did then what happens here wouldn't make sense to me.
Anyway, to me this take on things makes things more understandable, and like HR, this is how I felt from when the episode first aired. E2 just made me say, "Yeah, I thought so."
<shrug>
I really don't feel like she set out to use him, which to me means that she didn't. If that were the case, then I would feel it was out of character and messed up as well. And I don't think it's strange that she would be so affected by what had happened between them that she was frightened enough to back off, at least for the moment. She did an impulsive thing, acted on her feelings, which she doesn't make a habit of doing since it's a no no, and it frightened her. It doesn't make her juvenile, or immature or a bitch, IMHO. It makes her flawed, inexperienced and influenced by another substance which is allowing her to loosen control of her emotions, which she is again not used to at least to that extent. And so what if she's 60 something? Some people are late bloomers. She was engaged to be married, so what other experience would she have had in these matters, especially if one considers this more than just sex... unless she had a fling or some love story we aren't aware of... but if she did then what happens here wouldn't make sense to me.
Anyway, to me this take on things makes things more understandable, and like HR, this is how I felt from when the episode first aired. E2 just made me say, "Yeah, I thought so."
<shrug>
Harbinger is one of my favorite Trip & T'Pol episodes when it comes to T'Pol exploring her feelings for Trip she was afraid she was going to lose him to Amanda.This was new to her experience jealously like that and when she gave into those feelings for Trip it wasn't something she'd ever done like that before.Vulcans giving into their feelings like is usually forbidden and seen as a bad thing.Being betrothed and engeged as a child a Romantic relationship is totally foreign to to her and she didn't know how to handle the change in their relationship it's the reason why she backpeddled so quickly.What I find interesting later on is Trip's comments about doing the neroupressure I'm sure they did more than that. 
No Problem Cx what I meant to say that was impulsive on T'Pol's part was when she and Trip were gethering data on the spherebuilders pod. She tells Trip not to do anymore neroupressure with Amanda and her comments about all the time Trip spent with Amanda first eating in the messhall and the training session where T'Pol was watching their evry move she was upset Amanda had touched his behind. I think she was in her Vulcan way venting her frustration about him being with Amanda doing Vulcan Neroupressure and she found out about it from Phlox.Also that she felt really possesive of Trip.Trip laughed out loud at that and knew she was jealous of Amanda.Her comments about them being more discreet for instance. Also T'Pol doing the neroupressure on Amanda pinched her really hard when she talked about Trip Trip being a gentlemen and having grreat arms 
.T'Pol feelings were hurt that Trip would talk about his childhood and growing up in Florida with Amanda and especially about his sister Elizabeth. The look on T'Pol's face her feelings were hurt that Trip wouldldn't confide in her about his sister Elizabeth or how much he missed her.edit to add I think they had a conversation besides neroupressure was what i meant to say Trrip being a gentle men wouldn't want others to know what happened between him and T'POl he's a very private person so is T'Pol.
.T'Pol feelings were hurt that Trip would talk about his childhood and growing up in Florida with Amanda and especially about his sister Elizabeth. The look on T'Pol's face her feelings were hurt that Trip wouldldn't confide in her about his sister Elizabeth or how much he missed her.edit to add I think they had a conversation besides neroupressure was what i meant to say Trrip being a gentle men wouldn't want others to know what happened between him and T'POl he's a very private person so is T'Pol.
The idea of Trip bringing up the neuropressure as a possible way to "get laid again" seems inconsistent with the thoughtful and considerate gentleman we saw in previous episodes... the Trip who was concerned about T'Pol's reputation (Rajiin) and quick to cut short Malcolm's questionable reaction to the NP sessions (Anomaly, I think it was). I suppose we see different motivations behind that line.
As for T'Pol's reasons for getting together with Trip that night...sure, jealous of Amanda. Sure, some advance planning in the clothing (er, lack of clothing ) department. But I didn't see the "using Trip" angle. I think Amanda was a wake-up call for T'Pol, the way Sim was a wake-up call that Trip had feelings for her (whether he knew it consciously at that time or not). By the time of Harbinger, T'Pol has been accessing her emotions for over two months. Her reaction to Amanda wasn't necessarily only jealousy, or lust; it could also have been a realization that she was falling in love with Trip. And she chose to take a definitive step closer to him.
Personally, I don't think T'Pol (or perhaps most unbonded Vulcans, who knows) would enter into a physically intimate relationship (not referring to pon farr here) unless she felt a sufficiently deep emotional connection; there doesn't seem to be a logical reason to do so otherwise.
I don't think Trip and T'Pol's get-together was just a meaningless roll in the hay for either one of them, considering their behavior the next morning, which I already addressed upthread. It doesn't matter how old T'Pol was in years; if she was emotionally inexperienced (and her reaction indicated to me that she was), she wasn't prepared to deal with the depth and power of this new love she was feeling. As has been mentioned earlier, she is a Vulcan who has lived her life betrothed to another until recently. Plus, she has lived among aliens for the last three years, and she has spent her whole life trying to suppress her emotions. Not exactly primed and ready to fall head over her heels for an openly emotional guy like Trip.
As for T'Pol's reasons for getting together with Trip that night...sure, jealous of Amanda. Sure, some advance planning in the clothing (er, lack of clothing
) department. But I didn't see the "using Trip" angle. I think Amanda was a wake-up call for T'Pol, the way Sim was a wake-up call that Trip had feelings for her (whether he knew it consciously at that time or not). By the time of Harbinger, T'Pol has been accessing her emotions for over two months. Her reaction to Amanda wasn't necessarily only jealousy, or lust; it could also have been a realization that she was falling in love with Trip. And she chose to take a definitive step closer to him. Personally, I don't think T'Pol (or perhaps most unbonded Vulcans, who knows) would enter into a physically intimate relationship (not referring to pon farr here) unless she felt a sufficiently deep emotional connection; there doesn't seem to be a logical reason to do so otherwise.
I don't think Trip and T'Pol's get-together was just a meaningless roll in the hay for either one of them, considering their behavior the next morning, which I already addressed upthread. It doesn't matter how old T'Pol was in years; if she was emotionally inexperienced (and her reaction indicated to me that she was), she wasn't prepared to deal with the depth and power of this new love she was feeling. As has been mentioned earlier, she is a Vulcan who has lived her life betrothed to another until recently. Plus, she has lived among aliens for the last three years, and she has spent her whole life trying to suppress her emotions. Not exactly primed and ready to fall head over her heels for an openly emotional guy like Trip.
Captain X
Rear Admiral
T'Pol's coyness in the mess hall indicated to me that she at least wanted Trip to think it didn't mean anything. Rather than get up and leave at having his feelings and his dignity smeared, Trip wanted to go back to the status quo as indicated by "Let's forget this ever happened" line. He then suggested that they keep up the VNP despite the fact that with a mature adult who been treated like he had would be very uncomfortable in that kind of situation again. Must've been the case too, because I don't think they ever did it again.
As played out, I could tell that it was intended to be cute, but it wasn't, it actually made mea little sick to my stomache to see my favorite characters act in such a juvenille manner.
As played out, I could tell that it was intended to be cute, but it wasn't, it actually made mea little sick to my stomache to see my favorite characters act in such a juvenille manner.
I see that I ‘ve missed some good discussion here….
Re: Harbinger… I think I said quite a bit about that topic earlier in this thread, but just can’t resist adding a few more comments….
Like HR and boushh indicated, I never saw the “using Trip” angle, but I suppose it comes down to individual definitions of “used.” If T’Pol really had seduced Trip with the intent of experiencing sexuality and then dropping him, I would think she had used him. But I don’t think that’s what happened. It seemed reasonably clear (from the script and certain interviews leading up to the episode) that the motivation for T’Pol’s actions was supposed to be jealousy of Amanda together with her attraction/feelings for Trip. And I thought that was the main point of the banter session before the robe drop – to have them acknowledge and then act on the feelings that had been building between them. So I don’t see the “using” scenario because both T’Pol and Trip seemed to be acting based on the premise that there were mutual feelings.
Of course, the premise shifted with the morning after discussion when T’Pol backtracked and said it was all an experiment. But even when I first saw that scene, I didn’t think the audience was supposed to take T’Pol’s explanation at face value, especially given the coy manner in which the scene was played. And even though Trip initially acted angry (as if he felt he had been used), it seemed that by the end, he also thought that T’Pol was dissembling, which is why he threw out the comment that they could keep doing the neuropressure.
When it comes down to it, I can enjoy Harbinger as a standalone, especially since it has some “classic” T/T banter and interaction. But I would’ve preferred a different, somewhat more serious approach to the subject matter. After “Similitude” does a nice job of setting up the potential for deeper feelings between T/T, “Harbinger” feels like a bit of a step back – almost as if the writers wanted to have T/T get together but then reset to the status quo to keep the "will they, won't they" element going. And if you work backwards from the later storylines in “Damage” and “E2”, T’Pol’s reaction in the morning after scene also seems like a bit of a disconnect. In hindsight, one can assume that she was backpedaling because she was confused and afraid, but it just doesn’t come across in an obvious way given the tone of the scene.
On the other hand, the idea that T’Pol took the trellium because she wanted to get closer to Trip but didn’t know how also seems a bit odd from a timing standpoint. Based on what she told Phlox, T’Pol could’ve started taking the trellium as early as “The Shipment” timeframe, but I don’t remember many scenes in that timeframe that suggested she was having trouble interacting with Trip. In fact, one of the “flirtiest” scenes between them in S3 happened before T’Pol was even exposed to the trellium (i.e., movie night scene at the start of “Impulse”).
Anyhow, the dialogue from “Damage” indicates that as T’Pol’s exposure to trellium in “Impulse” began to wear off, she was able to access certain emotions and wanted more -- so she began to inject small amounts. After she began injecting those amounts, apparently, her interactions with the crew (especially Trip as Phlox notes) improved, so she continued to take it, eventually becoming addicted. I tend to think that she initially took the trellium because she wanted to experience and/or explore her emotions with a certain degree of control. And once she found out about Trip’s feelings and started thinking about their relationship differently, that probably became a prime motivator (along with the addictive properties) for her continuing. But there’s certainly room for interpretation on this issue, considering the minimal lack of build up to the addiction storyline.
Personally, I’ve always seen ‘Similitude” as a big “aha” moment for T’Pol, which caused her to examine her "feelings" for Trip more closely and see the relationship that was developing between them in a different way.
Re: the T/T screencaps, thanks for the appreciative comments and I'm glad you all like them. I was somewhat shocked to discover that there are 800+ images in my account (some of which are duplicates), so I do need to find a way to better organize them and make them accessible. I’ll look into the webpage option, but it might take a bit of extra time to get it all done due to real life priorities.
Re: Harbinger… I think I said quite a bit about that topic earlier in this thread, but just can’t resist adding a few more comments….
Like HR and boushh indicated, I never saw the “using Trip” angle, but I suppose it comes down to individual definitions of “used.” If T’Pol really had seduced Trip with the intent of experiencing sexuality and then dropping him, I would think she had used him. But I don’t think that’s what happened. It seemed reasonably clear (from the script and certain interviews leading up to the episode) that the motivation for T’Pol’s actions was supposed to be jealousy of Amanda together with her attraction/feelings for Trip. And I thought that was the main point of the banter session before the robe drop – to have them acknowledge and then act on the feelings that had been building between them. So I don’t see the “using” scenario because both T’Pol and Trip seemed to be acting based on the premise that there were mutual feelings.
Of course, the premise shifted with the morning after discussion when T’Pol backtracked and said it was all an experiment. But even when I first saw that scene, I didn’t think the audience was supposed to take T’Pol’s explanation at face value, especially given the coy manner in which the scene was played. And even though Trip initially acted angry (as if he felt he had been used), it seemed that by the end, he also thought that T’Pol was dissembling, which is why he threw out the comment that they could keep doing the neuropressure.
When it comes down to it, I can enjoy Harbinger as a standalone, especially since it has some “classic” T/T banter and interaction. But I would’ve preferred a different, somewhat more serious approach to the subject matter. After “Similitude” does a nice job of setting up the potential for deeper feelings between T/T, “Harbinger” feels like a bit of a step back – almost as if the writers wanted to have T/T get together but then reset to the status quo to keep the "will they, won't they" element going. And if you work backwards from the later storylines in “Damage” and “E2”, T’Pol’s reaction in the morning after scene also seems like a bit of a disconnect. In hindsight, one can assume that she was backpedaling because she was confused and afraid, but it just doesn’t come across in an obvious way given the tone of the scene.
Uh-oh, I didn’t realize you hadn’t yet seen “Similitude” or “Harbinger” – although now I do remember you mentioning that you started watching ENT sometime during S3. (BTW, those neuropressure caps I included were from the episode “Raijin,” from early S3, so you might not have seen that one either.) So does that mean you are now watching S2 on SciFi for the first time? It’ll be interesting to hear your views on the T/T elements in S2 as well as the first third of S3, which it sounds like you also haven’t seen.
OK, I gotcha…. Sorry, I didn’t remember the name of the group – just that they were Lycerian scientists. Actually, I do remember reading a story along those lines. It was called “Charlie,” I think. Does anyone else remember that one? I think I read it at HoT, and from what I recall, it had some rather thought-provoking elements.
I need to go back and watch these interviews again to remind myself of some of the details. But besides the food, I think at other times CT also has talked about other things that he thought dumbed down his character. For example, he indicated that some of the dialogue made it seem that Trip wasn’t very savvy about certain areas of his job. And I can sort of see his point because early on, I thought the writers emphasized more of the hands-on, repair-like elements of his role instead of the conceptual problem-solving that also should’ve been part of his engineering skills. In S3 and S4, though, it seemed like they emphasized the problems solving more and downplayed some of the stereotypical elements.
Well, I think this is where the timing issues come into play. From various interviews, comments, etc., it seems like the addiction arc was conceived later in the season after some of these earlier episodes were already written and filmed. So in Manny’s “Similitude” commentary, when he talks about wanting to focus more on the feelings between T/T and about how T’Pol’s knowledge that Trip’s in love with her will have implications for later episodes (e.g., Harbinger), the trellium storyline doesn’t seem to be a factor at all.
On the other hand, the idea that T’Pol took the trellium because she wanted to get closer to Trip but didn’t know how also seems a bit odd from a timing standpoint. Based on what she told Phlox, T’Pol could’ve started taking the trellium as early as “The Shipment” timeframe, but I don’t remember many scenes in that timeframe that suggested she was having trouble interacting with Trip. In fact, one of the “flirtiest” scenes between them in S3 happened before T’Pol was even exposed to the trellium (i.e., movie night scene at the start of “Impulse”).
Anyhow, the dialogue from “Damage” indicates that as T’Pol’s exposure to trellium in “Impulse” began to wear off, she was able to access certain emotions and wanted more -- so she began to inject small amounts. After she began injecting those amounts, apparently, her interactions with the crew (especially Trip as Phlox notes) improved, so she continued to take it, eventually becoming addicted. I tend to think that she initially took the trellium because she wanted to experience and/or explore her emotions with a certain degree of control. And once she found out about Trip’s feelings and started thinking about their relationship differently, that probably became a prime motivator (along with the addictive properties) for her continuing. But there’s certainly room for interpretation on this issue, considering the minimal lack of build up to the addiction storyline.
Well, in the commentary about “Similitude,” Manny Coto does allude to the idea that there was attraction between them early on. When he talks about wanting to put more focus on the feelings between T/T, he mentions that some of the scenes prior to “Similitude” had focused mainly on the sexual attraction and flirting between them.
Personally, I’ve always seen ‘Similitude” as a big “aha” moment for T’Pol, which caused her to examine her "feelings" for Trip more closely and see the relationship that was developing between them in a different way.
Re: the T/T screencaps, thanks for the appreciative comments and I'm glad you all like them. I was somewhat shocked to discover that there are 800+ images in my account (some of which are duplicates), so I do need to find a way to better organize them and make them accessible. I’ll look into the webpage option, but it might take a bit of extra time to get it all done due to real life priorities.
i also dont think tpol used trip .
for one thing trip heard experiment while tpol said exploration.
really examine the two terms because there are some fundamental differences between the two.
an exploration is more of long term more complex type of thing.
look at this definition..from an academic setting
no way is exploration a one night stand.
really to me when trip started off about being an expiment tpol seemed to be puzzled.
trip.. Sounds like you're saying last night was some kind of experiment.
T'POL: I wouldn't use that term.
and i think she was suprised by his lets forget this happened.
at this point she dosnt know where he is coming from and is trying to save face.
for one thing trip heard experiment while tpol said exploration.
really examine the two terms because there are some fundamental differences between the two.
an exploration is more of long term more complex type of thing.
look at this definition..from an academic setting
no way is exploration a one night stand.
really to me when trip started off about being an expiment tpol seemed to be puzzled.
trip.. Sounds like you're saying last night was some kind of experiment.
T'POL: I wouldn't use that term.
and i think she was suprised by his lets forget this happened.
at this point she dosnt know where he is coming from and is trying to save face.
She somehow knows their relationship is impossible, forbidden love whatever you wanna call it. T'Pol doesn't want to let him know he has a chance where he in fact has not. He loves her and she loves him and I think they know it at this point. But they are also sensible people and realise it is not possible.
Captain X
Rear Admiral
The difference is primarily between genders and how they interpret things differently. When she said it the way she did in the context that it was in, yeah, it seems more like an experimentation because it was an "exploration" of human sexuality, not an expression of the affection she stated she had for him before hand. Thus, really it was a kind of slap in the face, because it wasn't really about him other than the fact he was human. Since she put it the way she did, that kind of makes it almost sound like any human would have done. So he was basically just a variable in an experiment. Hence she used him, or at least that's what she said she did afterwards.
You know, T'Pol does seem to have planned out a lot of things as far as her feelings for Trip go. Maybe her discovery of the Amanda element forced her to act a little sooner on them and thus get a bit weird afterwards.
Indeed I am watching s2 for the first time! And you're right, I did start watching in the middle of s3, but I travel a lot and there are some eps I missed here/there due to that. I also missed a big wad of eps in s4 (the Augments arc) due to various activities. What is getting me about s2 so far is they keep trying to test a T'Pol/Archer thing but it just doesn't seem to click. I promise I'm trying to be unbiased here, but the fact that Archer is not written with as much depth coupled with the fact that Porthos seems to be his #1 (lol), kinda makes it fizzle for me. I am starting to see T/T's little quirks come through tho, like "Singularity" where he is fixing the chair and ignores her request to stop drilling for the moment. Which brings me to my next item:
Trip has been coming off as the all-purpose "fix it" guy. I agree that he needs more conceptual hurdles to jump, not just "my car's making a funny noise" kinda stuff. I know the radiation was getting to them all, but "wtf" when Archer had Trip come fix his CHAIR. I thought to myself, "shouldn't he be purging some system or pushing buttons in Engineering?"
More thoughts later, but I am late for work *dashes*
Indeed I am watching s2 for the first time! And you're right, I did start watching in the middle of s3, but I travel a lot and there are some eps I missed here/there due to that. I also missed a big wad of eps in s4 (the Augments arc) due to various activities. What is getting me about s2 so far is they keep trying to test a T'Pol/Archer thing but it just doesn't seem to click. I promise I'm trying to be unbiased here, but the fact that Archer is not written with as much depth coupled with the fact that Porthos seems to be his #1 (lol), kinda makes it fizzle for me. I am starting to see T/T's little quirks come through tho, like "Singularity" where he is fixing the chair and ignores her request to stop drilling for the moment. Which brings me to my next item:
Trip has been coming off as the all-purpose "fix it" guy. I agree that he needs more conceptual hurdles to jump, not just "my car's making a funny noise" kinda stuff. I know the radiation was getting to them all, but "wtf" when Archer had Trip come fix his CHAIR. I thought to myself, "shouldn't he be purging some system or pushing buttons in Engineering?"
More thoughts later, but I am late for work *dashes*
Oops what i meant to do was edit my last post when I meant to say was besides more than neroupressure I meant they would talk have a real conversation not get intimate again. I know Trip is a gentle men. Sorry for the confusion I was having problems with this site yesterday.Sorry for any confusion or misunderstandings over what i posted.
I started seeing that early on too...and still a little bit of it during the entire series (could never figure out why T'Pol always seemed to be more upset at the thought of losing Archer than of Trip --- even after they bonded). I couldn't see it either which is weird because I think Jolene would have much preferred that storyline and seemed to really admire Bakula to the point of being a fan. Hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes...just stating my opinion. But even with the off screen admiration, onscreen she and Trip sizzled. Maybe it was the "opposites attract" theory or the fact that they knew just the right buttons to push, but I lived for TnT moments.
Btw...what episode did you first notice an attraction between these two? While they always looked good together, I think for me it had to be the continuous ribbing that started in "Unexpected" and reared its head in subsequent eps.
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