Trill personhood

[Captrek]

A joined Trill is dying and, as with Ezri and Dax, no approved host is available, so the symbiont has to be translated into the only body available — a gorilla.

Is the joined gorilla a person under Trill law, or is a really smart gorilla with memories of being a member of humanoid society still just a gorilla?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

If the species of the host, as long as it did not reject the symbiote, did not matter, if it did not need to be capable of cognitive development, then no training would be necessary. The commission would foremost concern itself with the genetic hardiness of the host.

However, we see that the training of the host matters quite a bit. Ezri was unprepared. Jadzia was required to go through extensive training and prove her accomplishments.

The host matters, so the species of the host probably matters. Moreover, transferring the symbiote into a species incapable of understanding what is happening would be cruelty. But more importantly, it may be insufficient for the host. It conjoined species would most likely be In a protective status.

 

[Captrek]

If the species of the host, as long as it did not reject the symbiote, did not matter, if it did not need to be capable of cognitive development, then no training would be necessary. The commission would foremost concern itself with the genetic hardiness of the host.

However, we see that the training of the host matters quite a bit. Ezri was unprepared. Jadzia was required to go through extensive training and prove her accomplishments.

The host matters, so the species of the host probably matters. Moreover, transferring the symbiote into a species incapable of understanding what is happening would be cruelty. But more importantly, it may be insufficient for the host. It conjoined species would most likely be In a protective status.

In my proposed scenario, it's an emergency joining, just like Ezri was. Of course transferring into a gorilla isn't ordinarily encouraged by Trill society, but in this case it was the only way to keep the symbiont alive. Now the gorilla and symbiont are a joined being that doesn't want to die. Do you separate them by force? If not, the joining is a fait accompli. How do you treat the joined gorilla?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

In my proposed scenario, it's an emergency joining, just like Ezri was. Of course transferring into a gorilla isn't ordinarily encouraged by Trill society, but in this case it was the only way to keep the symbiont alive. Now the gorilla and symbiont are a joined being that doesn't want to die. Do you separate them by force? If not, the joining is a fait accompli. How do you treat the joined gorilla?

The joined should be treated as a being that cannot fully represent itself for lack of mental development.

 

[Tosk]

Do you separate them by force?

Your scenario requires joining them by force, so we can't really answer the question.
Unless it's by the same rules as your scenario. If force is allowed for joining, then may as well use it for separation too.

To be clear, I'm criticizing the scenario, not advocating for forced symbiont removals.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

In my proposed scenario, it's an emergency joining, just like Ezri was. Of course transferring into a gorilla isn't ordinarily encouraged by Trill society, but in this case it was the only way to keep the symbiont alive. Now the gorilla and symbiont are a joined being that doesn't want to die. Do you separate them by force? If not, the joining is a fait accompli. How do you treat the joined gorilla?

Before we go further, any primate that is recognizably sentient (see Measure of a Man) would be treated as such, regardless of having a symbiote.

 

[Captrek]

The joined should be treated as a being that cannot fully represent itself for lack of mental development.

But the now-joined gorilla is a lot smarter than your average gorilla. It knows humanoid language, law and morality, and is capable of functioning as a member of society, albehe one with extreme size and strength and some mental disability.

Your scenario requires joining them by force, so we can't really answer the question.
Unless it's by the same rules as your scenario. If force is allowed for joining, then may as well use it for separation too.

To be clear, I'm criticizing the scenario, not advocating for forced symbiont removals.

Admittedly, the gorilla did not understand what was going on and could not meaningfully consent to receiving the symbiont. But he gets it anyway, because somebody's desperate to keep the symbiont alive. We can argue whether or not it was right to do this, but it's a fait accompli, and it's too late to separate them without killing the host. The now-joined singular being, which is both gorilla and symbiont, is sapient and doesn't want to die. Regardless of the circumstances of the joining, does the joined being not have the right to live?

 

[Tosk]

The now-joined singular being, which is both gorilla and symbiont, is sapient and doesn't want to die. Regardless of the circumstances of the joining, does the joined being not have the right to live?

Ask Janeway. She'll rip that symbiont out herself.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

But the now-joined gorilla is a lot smarter than your average gorilla. It knows humanoid language, law and morality, and is capable of being a member of society.

See my third comment. If the conjoined species can communicate intelligibly, the question is moot and the problem is uninteresting. What would be an interesting question to ponder is if the symbiote is trapped in a body whose mind might not be able to communicate.

 

[Captrek]

See my third comment. If the conjoined species can communicate intelligibly, the question is moot and the problem is uninteresting. What would be an interesting question to ponder is if the symbiote is trapped in a body whose mind might not be able to communicate.

Ever heard of Koko? Gorillas can communicate if taught the basics of language. And this gorilla, with the benefit of the symbiont brain, would presumably be smarter than other gorillas.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Ever heard of Koko? Gorillas can communicate if taught the basics of language. And this gorilla, with the benefit of the symbiont brain, would presumably be smarter than other gorillas.

Koko was a hoax. Scientific consensus is that her use of sign did not amount to language.

Nonetheless, if the conjoined can communicate with the level of thought of a sentient species, it would be demonstrably sentient.

 

[Starflight]

This already happened once, the gorilla's name was William Riker.

 

[AntonyF]

I love how I feel Trek BBS has run out of topics so right now we have can the Voyager crew swim, who brings ale to an eggs party and can symbionts go into gorillas.

 

[Pumpkin Bread]

I love how I feel Trek BBS has run out of topics so right now we have can the Voyager crew swim, who brings ale to an eggs party and can symbionts go into gorillas.

That's not new. I saw one about what would have happened if HRH Captain Janeway had brought her dog with her. It was a few years old, so I couldn't comment, more's the pity.